I'm a little worried for her suddenly being involved in multiple projects at once, I hope things are OK... (I worry for any workaholic getting into the game again)... as for Moomins, it'll depend on the choice of what to adapt. I feel as if most Moomins adaptations tackle the same few stories over and over, with little variance beyond medium. That's a large part of my disinterest in adaptations... and why I don't really bother to get excited by a new one. Nobody seems to have a new angle on the work or Tove's perspective, and few even tackle what I love about a written scene, miss details or emphasis I liked in the text. I feel Tove's work has a kind of melancholy to it completely absent in most adaptations. It all just becomes twee...

I think to make a unique depiction you'd have to care about Tove, why she wrote each story, what she was going through, the people in her life, her relationship to Moomins itself as a property that took over past all her other artistic works and ruined her solitude. I favor the novels because they weren't forced like the comic strips. But it may be too much to ask for everyone interpreting her work to read the sanctioned biography. To understand what Moomin, Snufkin, Little My, Too-ticky, represent. At this moment, I don't know what motivates rsug to want to tackle Moomins. Did she read the books? Does she have investment in Tove's life, art, history? I could imagine it possible, but I don't want to assume.

My dream would be a depiction following some of the novels which don't get any adaptation at all, but it's unlikely. Wouldn't I love an rsug directed Moominpapa at Sea or Moominvalley In November? There are so many scenes in those I would love to see given a full respectful visual treatment, suchas Moomin's poisoning of the bugs, flirting with the seahorses, or connecting with the Groke at last, Moominmama disappearing into her paintings.... Toft's story could be given a lovely treatment. Snufkin's desperate searching for a letter from Moomin. But are those stories even so valuable to the average person, without the established context of the world? The point of them is depicting things breaking apart or being strange and unfamiliar to what we-- and the characters-- know or expect (on-the-nose, that's Snufkin's experience finding Moomin gone without notice in November...and Moomin on the Lighthouse's island...). The point was Tove not knowing how to return to Moominvalley after her mother's death, among other things. I like how rsug tackles loss, as someone who lost my (very close) father at a young age I am pickyyyyy about how it's handled; she DOES care about representing unflattering, messy emotions associated to family, pain, but. Who is to say that is what anyone would ever FUND to see depicted from MOOMINS? Just because that's what I obsess over with it, what impacted me most, doesn't mean anyone else will ever care about that, or a production would ever see such depiction as profitable or worthwhile.

The short of it is: I'll wait for details.

Thats interesting... it sounds like you feel like pornography is an inherently degrading/harmful product from the studying, whether you consciously intend to or not. I find it all very abstract human nonsense to create a picture out of anything... to form lines into a visage in a 2 dimensional plane... paint the cave wall.. again, from the cosmic perspective-- porn and not-porn are exactly the same to me... there is no moral attachment to making a SFW or NSFW image. It only becomes a problem if someone is being transgressed in some way ... but you could do that even by using someone's likeness without permission in like, a normal video game, or even drawing a completely SFW but still creepy and intrusive image of like, you and your ex happily married, LOL. I think about transgressions, I care about them!! But ... googling siamese cats to draw a picture, the least of anything....!

Whether you want to or mean to or not... it's an interesting mindset. I don't feel like there's any practical difference if I'm drawing moose posing neutrally or if I'm drawing them hogs flopping... who is being "exploited"...? The "likeness of the animal"? The image of the aardvark sleeping with a boner....... I don't feel I'm "exploiting" his .... experience ?? existence ?? I can't "transgress" this ... photograph. It's so many degrees of separation. Is the photographer "exploiting" the aardvark, to post this photo, to keep it in a portfolio? Are documentarian "exploiting" mating animals to produce a film..........considering an.......... animal's... ... ?? right to ... not be ... ? ...? used for a human narrative understanding of its existence ... (a bizarre human cultural concept it can't receive any impression of at all).

Maybe making human stories about animals is always a self-serving, selfish purpose. Is turning cats into Warriors more... respectful...? Is making the Lion King more noble a result of studying than my art...? I don't feel so at all. Do I feel Zootopia is a more noble, honorable use of references of animals than my weird porn ?! n-no, I don't really at all think that...! Do you think that? I'm curious really! I don't understand the mindset myself. I might be of rare mind to not think I'm lower of mind or spirit to make weird porn, because I think art is about simply externalizing things inside of your skull, a strange human capability I'm fascinated by and like to exercise.

Honestly I don't see a clear distinction between what goes into my brain for pure scientific curiosity and what is an aspect of sexuality fodder ... I can't really delineate in that way, and it seems like an illusion to imagine a boundary. Whether you see a deer outside your window and watch it eat the grass peacefully... or watch a documentary while eating dinner... or have the refs open for drawing porn... it all goes into the same brain. The same BEAUTIFUL creative curious brain.

You don't need to do things you're uncomfortable with BUT it can't feel ... good to feel those kinds of boundaries in your mind, to be skirting this edge, to have these concepts like "exploiting" a photo or paranoia about making it "accidentally too close"... it sounds like kind of policing that would result in anxiety, a confusing and foggy existence. Always a small action away from some sort of tiny crime... the EXPLOITATION of a being, that sounds so awful to hold inside as a belief. That sounds like it would feel... bad... over time... and make you feel like a bad and selfish person. So I might hope you don't feel that way forever...

I personally have no idea how or when or even why self-consciousness or shame develops in relation to this all myself... maybe broader social media in early life effects something? I don't feel any scrupulosity about like, watching a documentary or reading a scientific article and utilizing that footage or diagrams... this is objectively the only way to get good at drawing anything, is to study it carefully. Imagine trying to draw lamps while afraid of studying photos of lamps too closely.... my god.

When I was a child I mostly read/watched nonfiction, I owned a lot of informative booklets, care guides, encyclopedia of species or breeds... and I always applied these closely obviously, to my stories, drawings, worlds. I'd buy Cat Fancy magazines and then scour the final pages for breeder advertisements that contained websites I could look up, so I could stare at all of their Siamese kittens, and draw inspiration from that... learn learn learn... watch documentaries... agility competitions, on TV...

as a kid I'd like, finally get my grubby mits on a hamster care guide that had 1 BIG GLOSSY JPEG of hamsters mating, finally helping me to understand and study what I'd only read descriptions of in most care guides. Eating the informations like a desperate beggar, no second guessing in my MIND about the, morality of this ?!?! no my brain is too fast too ready, to apply this knowledge to thinking about Hamtaro and Bijou!!!!!! AT LAST, KNOWLEDGE!!! KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE!!!!! I'm not merely PULLING THINGS OUT OF MY ASS!!!!

as for the 'weirdness' or 'uncomfortable' aspect... maybe you have problems with, your own sexuality...? Or feeling spectated, what others think of you, how you're judged or perceived...? Do you like, engage with a lot of community and discussion about this on a regular basis, does it take space in your daily life? Do your friends discuss or worry about this...? I would assume it's less about ferals specifically and more about the entire concept of fantasy/fiction or what art or motivation means to you, maybe that's poorly defined or foggy for you? It's 'weird' to think about Hamtaro or Bijou having sex whether or not I look at diagrams about actual hamster mating ... it's such a trivial detail. Feeling bad for ... going to flickr.com and, typing in hamster??????? NOT AT ALL, I was just laughing the other day finding a photo of an aardvark asleep with a boner...! And it taught me about AARDVARKS! I said wow, information...! Nod nod... back to my drawings! I show my husband and friend the aardvark boner photo... we all laugh and say wow, wow... learning...

in many ways it is often more dubious to look at human porn LOL, I have to worry about what the people in this were going through... under what circumstances was this filmed... how was this distributed... I am not worried about this content sleepy aardvark... he's having a great life... not worried about this hamster mating glossy jpeg...

I have.... NO IDEA!!!! when or why I'd develop reservation about this ?!??! what am I... doing... that is wrong? Why feel 'weird' about it? In what way is what I am doing really even so different from what the... person illustrating the diagram in the encyclopedia, or filming the documentary, or taking the photographs, or sculpting the clay figure... is doing... I don't think drawing porn is cosmically important as a context. In the end it's all a form of study and artistry. It's equivalent.

I think of the creation of artwork as essentially a form of roleplay... it takes the same place in my mind that LARPing animals did as a child. Whether it is my child body crawling around on the floor pretending to dig a den... or my adult body illustrating an aardvark peeing on a fox... it's the exact same level of 'weird' and 'wrong'. I learn about knotting to improve my immersive playtimes with my beanie babies, I learn about urethra placement on an African Civet to improve my immersive arttimes. The reality of reading books and sifting through papers and photography is just such a dorky and placid activity??? I'm going to sit here and spend like 2 hours collaging photos of African plants, and environments, and animals... I'm going to painstakingly write down height/length measurements and resize references in relation to one another... I'm gonna have those things open on my phone next to me while I draw... I'll go hrmrmmrmm noo this muzzle shape isn't right for a cape fox, hrmrmmrm scroll scroll where was that profile shot I saved... scroll scroll..scribble.... OK markings... OK, I like these more creamsicle colored individuals rather than the more gray toned, hmm how to distill these markings... scribble scribble... zooms in on photo... ok, so there are dark eyeliner markings beside the eyes... and the white covers the entire leg about to the elbow, yes yes... alright, what are species of hare... scroll scroll... oooh tolai hare.... !!! haven't heard of that... save save save...

... this process is honestly a lot of fun for me, stimulating, I get to engage in my PEDANTIC obsession with informations and try to tastefully apply it to a sexy concept ... NO 'FEELING WEIRD' crosses my MIND... and it seems like a very very very very very recent concept among furries to dwell on this ?!?!?

Amusingly I have more concerns about copying specific architecture too closely or 'stealing' composition/colors from landscape photography and stuff... sometimes I worry if I take too much from any one photo of a glade, I'm robbing the photographer of their genius shot composition, I'm taking credit for something not mine... and I try to challenge myself to bash together more references and not pull too hard from any 1 photographer's work (though in my early practice, I leaned more on any individual photo)... I am never personally 1:1 recreating any photo of an animal, since my own artistic goal is stylization and simplification... I want to stare at so many photos and videos of animals that I have a tiny rotating model of it in my brain I can pose a billion ways... it becomes my brain-toy. How on earth do I develop that without references !??! but also... why would I ?????!??!??!?!? I love nature and I WANT to draw inspiration from it.... I don't want o draw off of... human cultural impressions of a fox, or play telephone with what furries think of as a fox, I want to understand the fox directly... it's be so much more shameful and disrespectful to nature to me PERSONALLY to be watering down the concept of a jackal to whatever other furries have distilled it to... let mediocre warrior cats fanart determine how I stylize cats... truly this is spiritually disgusting to me...

I do think a lot about the greater context in the world surrounding something like fooling around, though I also think this isn't something exclusive to incest at all! The difficulty, secrecy, consequences of trying to have sex when young are really one of my favorite pressures to consider... I guess it's a part of life I remember vividly myself. I like that in order to do ANYTHING as a kid or teen, you kind of have to be enterprising and duplicitous, you have to be motivated, you have to be clever, and you have to want it so badly that you are WILLING to risk so much, likely punishments as extreme as total separation, ostracization, or destruction of your social circles, your family, the trust others have in you (depending on your community). That's kind of what is so charming about puberty... it creates that imperative sense so extreme, you might just blow up your whole life to have something. PLEAAASE!!!!!!

I like chatting with friends or listening to candid podcasts where people can talk about like, how much hand and mouth stuff was going on at the back of the Gym Factory, how a back corner of the Baptist community pool was a hotbed for teen fingering, games like Snugglebug or 7 Minutes in Heaven, CONTRIVANCES!!!! And the people doing this are so rarely TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH sordid incest, it's BAD ENOUGH to be trying to secretly fuck the neighbor girl in your spider-infested Fischer-Price plastic house in the backyard!!! You go to a shitty movie about to be out of theaters with your friend in the HOPES the theater may be EMPTY so you can get some touchhhh. Your parents drop you off and don't know your nefarious plans. PUBERTY!!!!!

I was watching a video recently about playgrounds throughout history, and when it depicted the era I was familiar with-- very interesting sprawling wooden castle-like structures-- they pointed out parent's complaints about these beautiful playgrounds: the lack of clear sight lines at all times. I laughed out loud because I DO have memories of hotdogging behind the walls of one of those as a young teen. If ONLY I had a playmate in the Kid's Castle times... so many pipes to hide in.

That's kind of the operative fantasy...

In Deltarune itself, Asriel was reprimanded and made to go to church repeatedly just for being kissed by a girl as a teenager (we don't even have a gauge of how much he wanted it to happen). It isn't as if making out with Dess, Noelle, Catty or Bratty, would go smoothly.

Which brings me to another layer... trust and expectation. Some kids are allowed more freedom and leeway due to good behavior, or apparent disinterest in dating or sex. One may be able to blatantly get away with more or less! Everyone is scrutinized differently, effecting difficulty levels.

Maybe we could imagine Noelle has high trust; her family doesn't imagine her misbehaving, she is left home alone a lot. The household itself is restrictive, rarely allows any guests seemingly, she is meek, so the idea she is going to be getting railed behind Ice-E's is .... not of concern. She's not monitored very closely, even to a kind of neglectful extent (locked out of her house, needing Kris's help to break in...).

Where is Kris's trust level at? They are mischievous but, childish and clownish. I don't actually think anyone in the Holiday-Dreemurr households see Kris as a potential sexual menace... I think the aspect of being a human could also play a role? The Eunuch Jester.

In real life being a queer kid kind of rules in some ways because uhm, it's just not a concern what 2 girls may get up to. My house only really had a real about 'boys' being over, the door needing to stay open. Whim and I also both come from neglectful houses where we could get away with a lot, because our parents... didn't ... have the attentiveness. I will be real with you, my mom was a meth addict, it was lucky if she could get me to school enough days for me to graduate at all, so. Like. Many factors in households that determine how easy it is to get away with fucking around.

*steeples fingers* So... if we think about Asriel and Kris... let's imagine they're both committed to keeping a secret, at all costs. Separation is not an option, they couldn't bare it... Lets say they work in close concert with one another to consider all liabilities and risks, and acknowledge the possibility of pain and-- WAAAAAIT A MINUTE, THIS GAME IS ALREADY ABOUT SOME SORT OF INSANE CONTRIVED SECRET PROMISE IN OUR HEARTS I'M WITH YOU IN THE DARK!!!!!!!

... so what is even different? What difference would it make if Kris and """""Ralsei""""" were fucking in the dark? Or for that matter, if you're not incest-inclined, Kris and Susie, or Kris and Noelle! Kris is already secretly terrorizing Noelle in the Weird Route, she's already choosing to not report on the matter to a parent or teacher or something.

... I think in mmost ways, keeping mommy and daddy unawares of the incest kissy is easier than many other things... it's harder to trust outside agents, kids gossip, and it's much, much harder to be all alone with someone not in your family. Kris and Asriel share a bedroom... why couldn't they kiss eachother, what's stopping them? It's almost harder for me to imagine a circumstance in which they get caught. Couldn't they come up with almost ANY excuse as to what they were doing, and wouldn't their parents much sooner conclude they misunderstood something? I generally imagine even if one technically 'walked in on' something that it would be rationalized by any parent as completely non-sexual ... because it's Occam's Razor in this context. Teens are smart, they're often doing hand and mouth stuff 'cuz it's easy to quickly disengage from, hide, pretend you were doing aaaaanything else. This is also related to why I rarely ever depict or think about like, fullbody nude ass crazy 10 sex toys bucket of lube porn, lol. I'm inclined to envision fully-clothed, baaaarely peaking cock out from top of waistband, eaaasing a skirt up, pushing panties to the side, kind of stuff...

I really think Kris could be balls deep in Asriel's mouth beneath the bedcovers, and mom could knock, and they could work out any excuse-- even the clumsiest-- and what reason would mommy have to not believe it? One would be 'on the lookout' for something like that likely only if there were some sort of... obvious deterioration of mental health observed, unusual behavior, acting out, worrisome signs (which-- again-- Kris is actually already exhibiting in these Dark World Playtimes for theorhetically completely non-sex related reasons... mommy is already asking Kris's teacher and the hospital if they seem OK lately)...

.... so in all honesty I don't often play with entire scenarios or RPs where mommy and daddy find out! I CONSIDER it an aspect, like the characters would... but it's also an external threat that can be controlled with care, and I think-- IF ASRIEL AND CHARA COULD HIDE A LONG PROTRACTED ASSISTED SUICIDE FROM THEIR PARENTS SUCCESSFULLY WITH NOT A SINGLE CRACK-- ohhh a little nookie is a piece of CAKE, isn't it????

Conveniently Kris/Asriel and Chara/Asriel already engage in the art of doing some secret dark shit their parents would be horrified of!! IT'S ALL MY LITTLE GAME!!!!! I live HIGH on my kingdom.

The actual question... 'What would parents do if they found out'... is a little boring in practice. Little nuance to it. They'd have to figure out separation, I guess, try to control the situation? Asriel and Kris's parents are already divorced so it wouldn't even 'break the family'... Asriel is also already over 18 so banishing him from contact for the rest of Kris's childhood (or at least while appropriate measures are taken) is easy. Kris has seemingly already attended therapy at one point, back to it I guess. As for Kris and Asriel, well they'd surely do what any starcrossed lovers do... everything in their power to circumvent the separation........................ ? but again aren't they already doing this in canon ? just coping with the separation of college alone... they've been described by Alphys as talking for hours online every night... if I'm right in my suspicions that Asriel is the Phone Ghoul Voice, then Kris is already discreetly communicating, phone left with no trace of communication after correspondence ... mommy doesn't know...
Kris is out here slashing tires and cutting the internet to the town for the present 'plan'...
one must imagine an incredible Krissy-kun capable of thwarting any and all boundaries set in place. Such a beautiful mind.

... I'm more interested in playing out something like Dess or Noelle catching something, which both feels more likely (proximity...), and is just more interpersonally interesting, as their reactions are less rote and predictable. Nobody wants to destroy their friend's reputation, life. Noelle would have all of the background information on Kris and Asriel's childhood... how 'surprising' it is to her may depend on so many things... her age, and, what she's capable of conceptualizing, how she finds out, what exactly it is she sees. I like to think she would keep a secret, given that in Weird Route, she's keen to hide Kris's behavior, even if it frightens her directly. Obviously protecting Kris is more important than reporting them!
I think she would want to fully understand the situation, and hear from Kris and Azzy's own mouths, before she makes any snap judgements...! And I would like to think Kris and Azzy would want to trust her, wouldn't want to see her as an enemy or threat to their peace.... Surely, in this crazy scenario, they could talk it out.
When I consider how anyone reacts to things, I consider how much social mores mean to them... and how often do social mores feel 'right' or 'justified' to them in their own lives? Do they feel rules exist for a reason, do they believe rules protect us? Or do they break rules habitually, or do they WISH they broke rules habitually? Do they already love somebody or something controversial to love? Do they have interests or hobbies that are hard to explain, or misunderstood, or that their parents or peers would react to badly?
Noelle... I would imagine her thoughtful, contemplative, capable of looking back on years of memories with this new context, trying to make sense of this. Wouldn't the story of an adopted human falling in love with its monster brother seem kind of... fairytale like, romantic? Like something in a video game or movie or book...

Jury is OUT on Dess, but she's committed to disobey rules herself all the time, right? I hope she could just laugh and bully them about it discreetly or something. Even if she was rough around the edges, I believe all of them were good friends. Maybe a bit of like... don't you freaks corrupt Noelle in any way... KEEP THIS FROM HER SWEET MIND... SHE DOES NOT NEED THE DARK VISAGE OF YOUR HAND AND MOUTH STUFF!!!!

I actually think Susie would be Understanding, partially due to distance with the idea of 'family'? She's probably more atuned than anyone here to the interspecies aspect, adoption case thing... I could imagine her mind very crudely concluding "well it's not really bad, you're not even really related at all..."... she likely doesn't have much context for what growing up together with a sibling would feel like, or what 'makes it wrong'. She's not very literate or worldly. She would be more inclined to believe something that preserves her friendship with Kris, the thing she values ... as opposed to something as meaningless in her own life as 'society' or 'morals'. She's a misbehaved and misunderstood person... if it was made obvious this was important to Kris in some way, and Kris was obviously afraid of others finding out, of course she'd err on the side of "whatever, then society is wrong and stupid, what do they know about what's good or bad? Society makes people judge me shittily for stupid reasons too... you're not hurting anybody, if you both wanna do it then whatever, right?"

Forcing myself to think about the parents a little longer for you. I guess I think Asgore seems to me more capable of coming around to the idea !?!? but Toriel is the one with more concrete concepts of right/wrong in Undertale... Asgore kind of just does what is convenient, and what creates the least immediate conflict (does this make him soft, or a coward?). If Toriel went nuclear on the situation he'd probably align with her, but he'd also probably be unable to really muster up any punishing atmosphere for Asriel or Kris in practice... if anyone was going to look the other way, it would probably be Asgore... he would surely be torn between letting down Tori, or wanting to stay closer to his kids. In the end he would probably disappoint them all with useless fence-sitting, like in Undertale. Not supporting anyone enough to make impact.

Toriel has a stronger sense of justice and morals, she is much more capable of altering all of their lives, breaking the peace for the sake of something important. She has the greatest concept of consequences, harm, WHY it's not OK. I don't think she would hate any of her children; she could see this as a kind of foolishness... not villainy... but nonetheless I'm sure Asriel is held to a standard, being the older sibling, and the one with a kind of history of accusations as it is in canon. Kris is already babied and would be talked to and assigned professional help, boring but how it would go. In a situation like this, the 'responsible' and 'rational' thing to do would be to see Asriel as the perpetrator.

I guess if it got that 'intense' the only 2 options for our lovers are
1.) lover's suicide time.
2.) run away together

or maybe 3.) make a secret alternate world we can fall into hidden in the dark where none can see, where no one can tell us it is wrong to fall in love.

Do you ever think that for one reason or another Kris and Asriel may already be going nuclear, anyway? Do they ever not go nuclear...
overattachment and the expectation to 'grow up' alone might be capable of motivating them towards an insane escapism fantasy and dark plot....

So delightful. I'm happy Chara was given so much attention and praise... there is someone we still need to save.... uhm, I'll ramble what it made me think about... the things we were handed...

Well, I'm most happy that Toby made fun of Asriel's "maybe Chara wasn't the greatest person" comment. It seems to have made other people think about this line more. We should all think about Asriel's actions. You know, he's saying that meaningless thing while standing beside Chara's grave... (though you, the player, may lack the crucial information that Chara was buried there by Toriel, as events are contrived and locked behind certain route)...a specific, and far, far away place to reach from your confrontation. I doubt he expected you to come all that way, find him here, at this place which is more significant to him than it could ever be to you. He says, "someone has to look after these flowers". Someone has to stay with Chara. Nobody else will.

Rather than only saying something like, "Asriel is the fakest idgafer", I would like us to think *pushes up my little tiny glasses at the bridge of my nose* what his value of Chara VS the understanding Chara wasn't composed of the best impulses, makes him truly feel. He is committed to staying by their side forever. He doesn't join you on the surface. The surface still holds no more meaning to Asriel than it did eons ago, when they made the Plan, when Chara tried to open his future for him to be free. Asriel chooses to never go free. Acknowledging Chara's mistakes, doesn't shed Asriel's attachment.
On top of that, what reason does Asriel have to admit to you, in this circumstance, that he still loves Chara? What would such a narrative even mean to a complete outsider, a child at that? How could he explain, why would he take that time, to impress upon .... what? What virtue, what moral, what lesson, to take away from him still loving Chara, still missing them? You're capable of something neither of them could do in life... that selfless, unresentful love. Asriel is a simple failure. I always like that by the end of your final interaction, he says, "don't you have anything better to do?"... I always thought he sounded a little tired, or bitter.

You are the flower, I am the rain....

I'm happy we were given more information about the other fallen children...
maybe even the implication there were more than 6....? Merely 6 that Asgore got ahold of...
the concept that some children lived their lives for years with Toriel...!
She refers to the ruins as a 'catacombs' and she is a kind of groundskeep. I wonder how many bodies she laid to rest there.
Flowey has described (in other aside media), Toriel being bad at taking care of herself... not always eating, sleeping, drinking.... I wonder how many years sometimes passed between children needing tending. I love that Toriel isolates herself from society and commits to a particular life. It's more dramatic and extreme than it appears on its surface to any kid falling (a nice woman living a humble life in a little home).
The exposure of the greater ruins was amazing, it seemed to emphasize the extremeness,
the image of Toriel wandering through and steadily looting an abandoned town of its supplies... I enjoy. I wonder what books she cherry-picks for her shelves, for children's shelves, which she leaves to dust in the ruins....
Monster food doesn't expire like human food, because it isn't 'digested' like human food...

Asriel resents her willingness to take in other human children and love them as she did Chara... it makes him feel as if Chara could have been 'anyone', or wasn't special. It makes him feel love isn't exclusive, that it's replaceable. It makes him feel insignificant and afraid, I think. It is a betrayal. He's a child, afterall. With the knowledge that some of those children got to spend many more years with Toriel than Asriel or Chara ever did, you can kind of sympathize with his bitterness, his sense of everyone drifting farther and farther away from him.... without exclusivity, how do you designate importance...? Time becomes this endless thing, everyone moves perpetually, only occasionally bumping into one another briefly...

but when you look at the actions of Toriel compared to Asgore, maybe you could say she has sacrificed much more in honor of her children's disappearance. Asgore still has friends, and a life continuing outside of his pain, some normalcy... to some extent. He has Rudy, Alphys, Undyne, so many people... though he lives in a scary tomb of memories in his own way. He's frozen in time... Flowey is derisive to both of his parents, but him and Asgore are simpatico in their mission to kill other children falling, to treat them in contrast to Chara.

More history, too... uhmm I like acknowledgement that human/monster relationships exist, obviously...
we don't really have context for just how rare they were, or how they were seen in society. Obviously I'm always thinking about this. In DELTARUNE Kris clicks a pop-up add for "MONSTERS4HUMANS"........ the chaserism. Laughs....
I'm happy the war should be thought of as miserable and complicated as you'd expect, the nuance of wide scale conflict... something nobody was committed to, something nobody wanted, but was happening all the way to its climax. I wonder if the banishing of monsters was so magical that none could have lingered on the surface in secrecy, or if some may be tucked away on the surface, utterly isolated from their own kind....
In Deltarune it looks like neither humans nor monsters know magic anymore, so I wonder why that is... if we can 'use up' all magic in any sense, that's fun.
Uhm its interesting Gerson could be normal nuclear monster same-species married with kids in DR but have had a more ambiguous history with a human in UT. I guess we don't know anything about his personal life, though. Of all of the translations of character's qualities between UT->DR, the transition from being a historian to a religious figure in Gerson is the least straightforward (...from our perspective?!!??!) ... uhm much to think about.

Uhm I laughed out loud when Toby suddenly said Alphys wasn't conventionally attractive?????!??!? Look, I'm not saying she's gorgeous to me, but I didn't really know we could put any monsters on 'the grid' like that......... I didn't know if that was really set in stone........... like I could have just as easily blamed her circumstances entirely on personality flaws............. I don't know monster beauty standards, I don't know if and when a dinosaur is less sexy than a bunny, I don't know what 'convention' is in this world of Starwalkers. But my image of the designs in UT/DR changed in a subtle,, almost imperceptible way.............................

I love in-world attractiveness context, it is my bread and butter.
I don't care what the world itself looks like, whether it is a silly cartoon or a beautiful anime world,
any of these things can express a concept of ugly/pretty! I like to say "YES AND" instead of arguing with it!
In Adventure Time, Finn may look like a funny little guy to US, but in canon, he's often regarded well by princesses and seen as handsome!!
In JSHK, we may just see a bunch of sparkly-eyed beautiful boys and girls, but Aoi is a popular, pretty girl while Nene-chan is on the frumpy side (an acquired taste, let's say). Of course the Yugi are small, weedy, bug-eyed creeps, not traditionally handsome at all, to their peers.
I like that a lot. It informs you about any character's individual experiences...

who receives a lot of Valentine's? How do characters feel about their own body, their own face? What does any character expect to be seen as commonly, by others? What leagues exist? What relationships are more socially transgressive?
Though it's also never the be-all end-all of context. Alphys struggles with loneliness for many reasons, some more self-imposed and inflicted.....
it's an ingredient in the recipe....

Of course, someone like Noelle appears to be pretty to some extent in canon (though I can't be sure as Catti, Berdly, and Susie are all erm, unique individuals and not exactly the most popular opinion... and I don't know how she may have compared to her sister)... but this won't save her from loneliness and a feeling of being lost. Her inability to be assertive makes her a pushover, subject to distasteful things regardless of her own preference.
I wonder how Kris feels, as the only human in a town of monsters.
I doubt anyone sees Kris as an eligible bachelor ... that's my assumption. I would doubt they see themselves as anyone's dreamboat. Becoming a clown goof menace weirdo is often a way of coping with that. Someone like Noelle can't really conceptualize of a Kris who is flirtatious .... that's a reality Kris has carved out for themselves, one where it's absurdist to imagine them lustful. Perhaps if nobody 'expects' you to like or want romance, there can't be rejection. Can't fail at what you don't try......... (but I think how they 'play' in the Darkworld exposes that it is an interest Kris has, a behavior they want to act out, in secrecy... flirting with cards and toys.... SAD)

Now, the notion Alphys and Sans ?? may have ever or could ever be a thing ?? is deeply interesting uhm, in its own way....
I wouldn't say either are 'conventionally' attractive to anyone, and I highly doubt either of them are really the other's Ideal Endgame. They are both scientists though, and were studying aspects of their world's structure in an attempt to free their kind.... so they crossed paths, eh? Uhm, many such cases ..............

a moment of silence for my curiosity at how the games handle the concepts of relatives + romantic partners. It's like uhm. Interesting Alphys & Undyne are respectively attached to Papyrus & Sans. It's like, interesting to have a, possible sexual history, with a guy who is brother to a guy who is close to your crush ................ small world..... kind of embarrassing to think about navigating.... Alphys is probably lucky Papyrus is such a clueless guy who won't do espionage or babble to Undyne about. Things. But that is also a kind of burden of its own. Noelle is kind of weird about hiding her mere FRIENDSHIP's depth/history with Kris to Susie, her crush ... (she doesn't want to give Susie, who is easily discouraged, the wrong impression) .... not that I think Undyne would really care if she knew Sans and Alphys were ever anything, more like... isn't it just interesting how layers of interconnection work.................. over duration of time especially...

You also have the strangeness that is Mad Mew Mew, Undyne's training dummy, having a crush on Undyne, while Alphys has a friendship with Mettaton, and Alphys definitely finds both Mew Mew (whos body used to be her anime figurine?) and Mettaton (whos body she designed to be sexy?) attractive ............ and Mew Mew & Mettaton are 'cousins'....? and then you have Mew Mew and Mettaton duking it out over Napstablook (beloved cousin). Uhm this is me saying, there sure are tangled webs in Undertale, aren't there....?

The Underground is so small, it does remind me of living in a small town, where like everyone has at some point had some kind of interaction ........................... and you have weird transient relationships and people not capable of disappearing from one another's lives after a hook-up (something you have the grace of doing when you live in a larger, more populated city).................

We can't talk about Napstablook's Mettaton drama CD .... it threw me back in time to trying to listen to BL drama CDs as a teenager. Harrowing. Blooky is a blameless innocent soul because they do Not know Mettaton is actually their cousin possessing a robot, as Alphy's narrative for Asgore was that she built a robot from scratch; but I WILL blame Mettaton who DOES remember Blooky and for some reason chooses to OBFUSCATE his real identity to Blooky past the point it is even necessary to do so.

Blooky part 2: I'm sorry I did laugh a lot when 1st stream, people for some reason zeroed in on Napstablook being "misgendered" as he/him (all ghosts appear to be they/them before possessing something, for some reason?)..... and Toby was like.... "urrr the text to speech is clumsy and makes mistakes easy lol what can ya do" but then Immediately shared a piece of old Napstablook development work that also referred to Blooky as he/him. Tasteful. Calm down everyone............................. its not so serious.............................

I'm interested in Toby's interest in depicting attractions and relationships that shift over time...
feelings, relationships, that were one way at one point, and another later...
obviously, that's an aspect of Toriel/Asgore...
and probably the entire Holiday-and-Dreemurr history, given Asgore's... attachment... to Rudy......... (I also might question how much Carol supports Asgore)

but, we should be interested in how that can be an aspect of anything, right?

I have suspicions that Deltarune will also explore this, the at times transient nature of romantic interest, the ability to 'miss' that connection and move 'past' it...
I have my own real life experiences of this sort of thing. It's strange, surreal. I remember a friend and I, in high school, in respective relationships, but admitting to one another that we both actually had crushes on each other, for years, in the past .... it just didn't crest at any point, since neither of us said anything. We had been friends since middle school,
so I wondered just how long our feelings were actually in synchronicity, but uselessly unmentioned.
I feel like Deltarune could depict something like that.
More complexity may be added to these sorts of strange, incomplete feelings, when you add in people moving, dying, going missing... how age might play into something like that, as well. Like having a crush on someone a little older or younger, and failing to realize it's incredibly unlikely you even registered as a romantic possibility to them.
Whim has a funny story about thinking he was flirting a bit with a pretty girl in church, but learning she was much older than he thought.... wwwwww.... the interaction was different for her.

even if someone is right there every day, you may still dodge any closure with them, as a consequence of humility or shame. I can only imagine what kind of ephemeral feelings could have existed between a set of 4 neighbor children in a small town, growing up beside each other.

By comparison, Asriel and Chara were so young ... we lack a few of those layers of time... but I think Asriel still suffered, in his own way, from feeling appealing to Chara... he didn't want to be seen as a crybaby to Chara, he wanted to be cooler than that. God of Hyperdeath ...
oh, right, Toby casually commented what we already knew... that God of Hyperdeath is a persona Asriel made up, his own idea of 'cool'....
To Asriel, Chara was probably so naturally 'cool', right? With that ability to make creepy faces, laugh things off, perhaps be a little more withholding and mysterious, dark, brooding. Isn't that just so cool? Asriel's emotions are embarrassingly more obvious...

While for Chara, Asriel was likely someone so much more deserving of love and happiness than them, someone innocent and sweet. Chara wanted to kill themselves, hated the very thing they were ... humanity... must have hated their own face in the mirror. I'm sure the entire dynamic with Asriel, at times, felt like something they don't deserve ... hence, enacting a plan to die, and free him to live a life on the surface, to move past them, to love other people.

I think something both Undertale and Deltarune touch on, is people underestimating their meaning to one another. Obviously Chara couldn't have imagined dying would effect Asriel so hard; they thought they were a fundamentally bad person!

Like the 'relationships' thing I was talking about earlier...
or, like Toby mentioned about Alphys... someone like Undyne could always like someone like Alphys.
When we admire someone so much, we might imagine it's either,
so impossible they could ever return that,
or, that it would be a wrong decision you have to save them from,
to like you. If you hate yourself,
it can feel like shackling someone to a terrible burden.
You may believe they only like you as a kind of misunderstanding...
"if they really knew what I was like, they would understand to stay away"
"they wouldn't love me if they knew the truth, because the truth of me is fundamentally unlovable"
... someone like Alphys, and someone like Chara, can feel that kind of thing.
You could think of Susie too...
These feelings are also present in """""Ralsei"""""...
I wonder what """"Asriel""""" or Kris may feel, in Deltarune.

Characters will go far to try to shield others from information that may alter the state of a relationship as it is, too...
Alphys hiding her experiments,
Ralsei hiding the prophecy and his depth of knowledge,
Isn't it fascinating that a person may BOTH shield others from information to maintain a certain image,
and ALSO keep that person at a fixed distance, freezing them in a state of semi-intimacy?
Refusing to let the relationship become either "more" or "less"....
I wonder about Kris and Asriel, again...
isn't it interesting that siblings are a special kind of 'fixed state' that is much harder to turn into 'more' or 'less', without something rather catastrophic destroying or escalating it? It is expected to stay a certain way. I'm sorry I'm the stupid incest whore, ughhhh I'm sorry I'm srory... we almost made it a whole post.... shhs hshshshhhh shshshshshshhshhhhhhhhhhh

In this life we have to give people the opportunity to surprise us............................
what a difficult thing to do. It's scary, because, they may do the opposite,
and just reaffirm the painful reality we already 'knew' was 'true'.
They they really, honestly couldn't love us.
It would be more painful to be open to hope and have it crushed,
than to perish all hope in the heart before it can form. Decisive beliefs about ourselves protect us from probable pain by accepting absolute pain. Self-hatred can be so comforting like that.

... anyway ... that is what the stream made me think about. Much TO think about.
I'm happy for little tidbits of informations....
and I'm really happy it was ensured that Chara would 'win' hah... how meaningless it would be to have a stupid meme in those emotional dialogues. Togores I will beat you to a pulp. I will pull all your limbs off with my bare hands. I will slice you to ribbons like banana peel. In a year or two nobody will remember you, insignificant trivial fandom-crafted meme. Starwalker will outlive you.

I was really happy the mods were deleting things like the 'truck' meme. Thanks ... I don't feel it is appropriate. I don't think we should make gags about something like that in the charity stream, of all places, any more than we should make gags about Chara or Alphys committing suicide, or something. I think it is pretty counter to the point of. The games. I know I'm the incest whore so my opinion is meaningless but, it made me happy something like that was kept away from the experience...

I can't remember a recent time drawing axolotl at all-- maybe the most distant times in high school or something to that effect? They are quite small, so I'd have to think in such teensy dimensions! Not a common scale for me to think of non-mammals in... I suppose my aquatic interests are larger? I may think Olm are more beautiful and stimulating to fathom... like a beautiful dragon axolotl... and the setting of a dark cave... imagine...! the romance!

I'm not super interested in amphibians, reptiles, beyond that threshold of 'cute' and the general ecosystem being fascinating (thus I don't draw them much, just watch docus!)...

I've done a commission for a dolphin x otter gang-bang! Found in my inkbunny/FA. And I've done some Gold Cloud aquatic creatures... but I suppose I haven't gone there much myself outside of that, on my own time. I really like shove momentum, weight, gravity, and leverage; an underwater scene can be a challenge, though not an unwelcome one. When I do think of marine/aquatic animals, I often like to think them beached or in very shallow water! It's a form of bondage or trapping that can be interesting. Plus pairing with something non-aquatic becomes possible :3c

I have references gathered for some proto-whale x pterosaur eroticism in my dreams.... I always imagine it semi-submerged...

Oh yeah, I find humback whales very beautiful... though the scale, the SCALE, it's hard to think about eh?? Mayhaps a baby humpback would be a delightful subject to pair something with. A girl x a baby humpback...
A dugong could be alluring... mm and manta ray are so beautiful, and variable in sizes... epaulette sharks are soooo cutes to me.... in the extinct realm, so many more options, spinosaurids and plesiosaur....

fully marine/aquatic things, may not take up as much space in my artistic mind as merely semi-aquatic mammals.... I like sea lions... otter civets... otters... seabirds... wading birds like herons... things that dip into water to feed like moose or deinocheirus...

cute!! I love their lippy mouth, so cute and expressive. Their ears are so precious too! I am often watching baby rhino footage, so rowdies and perfect baby proportions!

I love a Big Animal, and rhinos maintain an elegance to their anatomy... I can't say I like elephant leg anatomy for instance (so stiff and straight...) though I love their heads. I'm grateful that hippo and rhino and tapir and giraffes, most other LARGE ANIMAL and their ancestors, all maintain the cuter leg anatomy... sorry to elephants....

I like their head-and-neck shapes. Nice long thickkk neck....!

Rhinos win for cutest feets too probably!! 3 big hoofers, so toony feeling! Very cute shape seen from below.
Sumatran might be my favorite...? I love the color sometimes being rusty...! Handsome shade. Very lovely to imagine a composition around. Just lovely amongst emerald greens. but I also do love black rhino's sweet hooked lippy....! I like seeing them being fed in zoos :3 and I like all the footage that exists of them scratching their bellies on rocks...!

But big honors also upon Elasmotherium, would love to see the beest in our world... marries some of the most handsome qualities of a buffalo and a rhino.

What else!? Like moose and horse and 1 million other mammals, they are expressive with their pee in mating, which I'm a big fan of. Like tapir they can also blast that pee BACKWARDS, point penis fully behind to shoot sprays over a distance. I still think moose win out for their intriguing pee pits, but respect to all pissers....