I tend to draft/sketch/draw/doodle in MS paint, and I use PS CS2 for larger/more complex pieces that DO require layers and deliberation!

I've been drawing in MS paint since I was a kid, so it feels easy by familiarity. I feel like I sketch a lot more loosely, fluidly, and freely, without as much hesitation or second guessing as in other programs. The singular layer feels analogous to drawing on paper.... and I just use gradual degrees of very light to darker pencils to keep things sane, much like you would sketching on paper (maybe starting with a very light yellow or blue to draft, or holding your pencil super lightly...).... for just general doodling it feels as if layers aren't really necessary ... only when I'm actually trying to engage with a more layered scene or more bodies, does it feel difficult... ... but it's also very difficult for me to plan/achieve multi-layered scenes in traditional media!

So, I guess I'd just say MS paint is the same as paper. It's a big blank sheet and to get an idea down, I don't need more than a mechanical pencil or ballpoint pen, right? AND STICKY NOTES...! If I really want to dive into something involved, I would scan the paper, or drag the canvas into PS CS2!!

I often feel like if I start in CS2 I'll tend to overcomplicate things...

uhm well, for quite a lot of years I did lean more fully into PS, even Sai briefly, with a lot of brushes... and I feel like my art from that time got immensely, immeasurably worse. I feel like my artistic speech slurred, so to speak. That I wasn't making 'decisions' so much as mushing around cheap effects. If you took any of that art and removed the brushes and pressure sensitivity, it all had awful posing, awful anatomy, hideous composition. It feels like such tools prevent me from 'seeing' what I'm doing ... personally. I lose the 'form'...

When I looked back on my work as a whole, I was most proud and nostalgic for pieces made in MS paint... I felt the greater tool useage only made me go backwards, really. Even things I made very young still had charm... more charming than works I was making in my early 20s. Even looking at my teenage works actually, I feel like learning a bunch of Deviantart tricks like gaussian blur and custom brushes stuff really sent me backwards .... !! Ah I guess even in traditional media, I had a point I feel I got too obsessed with particular tools, relied on them to just 'make it look good'...

Going back to the fixed width brushes without pressure sensitivity, the single layer, even the 1px brush, I felt I could lasso my art back into shapes I could actually see... I felt more in-control.... doing this traditionally, also, happened at the same time, I switched to more basic, maybe childish tools, like just crayola markers from a free bin, crayons, the sort of stuff you'd grab as a kid ... I needed to forget about the 'image' of drawing ...

I don't know why it's that way for me, but it is. I still sometimes dabble in other programs or effects, but I'm wary of losing myself...

sigh wouldn't it be... I wish to go to the girlie place. I hadn't had much in my mind for her aesthetic in general until seeing her bedroom, and it really pleased me to see it all pink and baby blue, little christmas lights and a pretty christmas cactus (: and its cute to favor a petsim of all things...

I'll talk a little more about Noelle+Kris playtime thoughts because why not (: it's a very fanciful kind of imaginings...
the CyberWorld is very fun and I loved when that chapter came out, BUT,, I don't personally need to attribute the bulk of it to Asriel or Noelle, LOL.... seeing more aspects of Dess in 3/4 was kinda relieving ?! for me ?! it kind of 'explained' some vibes I had a hard time placing with oniichan or girlie... it makes my mind feel Collected. Things feel less Random. Kris is a variable creature, a kind of chameleon, capable of wearing bows and doing twirls OR play doggie OR play fight punch OR play Naked Kill......... LOL. But the other participants have distinct palettes...

when I think of Kris and Noelle's playtimes, I like to think about that thing Noelle mentions on her blog, how Kris was spontaneously interrupting them to play the piano, sometimes for hours... what sort of games or stories were they playing just before that moment...? Noelle describes herself laying still in the other room, and imagining Kris playing a concert just for her... was there something in their games that would inspire Kris to imagine a song, play a song? What kind of place was Noelle's mind in, to fantasize something like that?

Queen is... irreverent, you know, she teabags you when she beats you GKghklLSJGLF Kris is launching baseballs at her face, she is making mixtapes, splashing drink in Kris's face, exploding car. So funny to imagine for Dess Games, maybe a messy and defensive girl, maybe teetering on the edge of irony-poisoning that gets us all at tweenage. But Noelle, is so different... would such dumb Queenish chicanery really prelude Kris's sudden piano fixation...? Music pouring out... Noelle, she's a very romantically-minded girl, for one thing, sentimental for another... earnest... she wore angel wings for ages as a child... I would think there were stories and roles Kris could only engage in with the discreet quiet same-age girl... ! who won't ask questions... (this doesn't even interfere with my Asriel/Kris beautiful playtimes either, since I think being siblings offers a different kind of freedom, trust and discretion!!!!!)...

Whether or not we can really represent it as even an aspect of a Darkworld remains to be seen, though I'd like it lots... I also consider that it could just be too embarrassing or private to expose to the air ??? When Noelle says (We've been through so much, sometimes it feels like...) (We know each other better than anyone.)... she does imply it goes both ways. Godknows the secrets she keeps... WHAT was 4 year old Kris doing when all alone with a neighbor girl.... what IDEAS flowed freely....

My current favored concepts for what the heck did Noelle and Kris play at all ages up-til age 7/8 (best guess for when Dess may have disappeared).... baring in mind they had such a young start and YEARS to build on concepts and familiarity.... and Noelle is way too agreeable.... AND, they STOPPED before it could have gotten er, Too Real maybe

1.) slasher film or creepypasta sort of stuff, Noelle uniquely willing to play victim (she does just beg Kris to save her from things in ch2...). TWIST: Maybe Kris played both roles of KILLER and SAVIOR and alternated between these. tfw foreshadowing dual-wielding 'roles', protector and predator. Maybe whichever 'won' varied...

2.) rare straightforward princess/knight stuff, since both like RPG like Dragon Blazers! (Kris could watch Azzy play the game, then left with Noelle & a babysitter later, ripoff a bunch of story elements....) Teetering into romantic elements would be an interesting thing to be left with no closure on, lol. TWIST: again Kris could orchestrate situations to rescue her from....... though it could be more Zelda-y.

3.) some sort of combination of those 2, like, Phantom of the Opera-esque....

well, you don't have to agree with it, and I'm not in the interest in arguing or convincing anyone of anything, but I'd happily explain my rationale....

What Ramb says exactly is...
'Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and that girl had everyone here lined up.
Queen on her side, King on your side, Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS!
Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home just to play make believe.
... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright.'

The description to me describes roleplaying with these objects, each kid playing on different sides, so you have the girl playing Queen + her entourage, and the other playing King + his entourage. I don't think the Look of Queen, her mansion, her servants, etc, would need to be recognized at all... but simply the names, dynamic, personality, general setting,, vibe of dialogue would HAVE to be familiar! Even if I and my playmate had different visual conceptualizations of our playtimes, I'd still remember the jist, yaknow? For what its worth anyway Asriel's computer even has a drawing (by him and Kris) of a cyber-world, so... I think the kids did occasionally illustrate their visions together (and are now conveying them in a crazy darkride)...

When Noelle describes the world she can only describe it as feeling like a video game... and she remarks repeatedly on it resembling what Dess described to her of cities she longed to go to, what Dess liked, wishes Dess was here to see it...

I don't see the Cyberworld as very reflective of Noelle's interests or even what Kris might have liked to play with her when they were kids! Which to be true IS a big mystery to us, beyond Kris obviously liking to haunt her with spooky themes and SOUL and BLOOD. And BECAUSE Noelle is important, I think we're saving a darkworld reflective of THOSE playtimes for later! I think there will be lots to chew on with that... and there is evidence in the gamefiles that Noelle will rejoin our party, at some point. I think when a world is wholly reflective of Noelle-Kris playtimes, we will be hit by the greatest truck of context and knowledge imaginable. Personally I'd really like to explore more of a horror/slasher/3AM Not Clickbait darkworld theme with Noelle ?!?! or fuck, even something humiliatingly romantic ? I dunno!! CyberCity doesn't mesh with Noelle's color/visual/references for meeeee as some sort of Bespoke Place... after hearing Raise your Bat (and associated outfits) and the inside of Dess's room, I feel more convinced the CyberCity could draw from her/Kris's connection, what hobbies THEY could have shared, rhythm games and nonsense................

Dess liked music, cities, cool bands, stuff like paintball... its so easy to imagine arcade games, punchout, fitting in there... the cybercity really fits way more with a kind of maybe-mean-older-tween-girl vibe to meeee. Calling you a child, praising herself as super intelligent and amazing. Even with stuff like some of the citizens being thirsty horndogs for Queen ugghrhgh. When I look at dialogue between King & Queen specifically even I cannot fathom Noelle in that role with Kris................

also I'd say "remember when you used to..." is the theme of the entire game! It couldn't be tied to any 1 character, as our message about nostalgia or memories is something which will surely penetrate every member of the cast, and our finale, which will involve everyone. Tenna reminisces on absolutely everyone in all directions, Kris reminisces on Azzy (Talked about the snow matted on your brother's nose./** Talked about the chill of the wind on the ice skating pond.*), Susie goes through her unhappy memories, Noelle reminisces on Dess, Toriel reminisces on Asriel, Asgore reminisces on their family.... everyone is "remember when Azzy did this/remember when you did this/remember when Dess used to"........ a lot of "want it to be the way it was again", which was also something UNDERTALE explored (specifically about loss). Obviously the broad concept of 'memories'/'nostalgia' applies to everyone....... !

short answer to that second part: NO!!!!!

long answer: speaking completely honestly, I personally find the concept of "making a Dess design" absolutely baffling, as I've spectated the fandom doing this I feel like .... ??? WHY ... ??? as I see ENTIRE COMICS, ANIMATIONS, PORNOGRAPHY,, made of imaginary theoretical designs and mannerisms, I cannot understand wanting to look at these things let alone produce them??????????? I'm interested in what Dess will look and act like, I like to speculate-- but I'm-- I'm interested in Toby Fox's vision and story ?? I am not interested in scrolling thru bunch of furry's off-the-dome deer OCs, effectively??? Its like... art of nobody????????? Because it's... not Dess??????????????????????? MAY AS WELL DESIGN AN IMAGINARY LITTLE DEER BROTHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to draw snugglebug, taste my steel, and skinny dipping more than anybody................. but I'll wait to know her.

here are my vague internal notions of her for considerations:

...we have a variety of fur & hair colors between Rudy & Carol, we can mix-n-match light brown, dark brown, blond, black... the black deer sprite hidden in mantle makes me think dark hair or fur, but who knows... The things we know of her like... she seems to throw tantrums... she's competitive, even over sillay things like Noelle's snow angel being the Best... she sneakily watches alligator bikini babes MTV SPRING BREAK Wild And Crazy Girls... she collects pretty fallen leaves in an altoids tin.... she very rapidly cycles through interests/hobbies (sports equipment and instruments) and doesn't seem very focused on any 1...

the Noelle we see overwhelmed with mourning her in the Spelling Bee peek from ch2, is SO young, Noelle looks to be in elementary school at the time Dess went missing... and the How to Draw Dragons book (with sexy dragon babe on cover, traced by someone in Dess's room) which no one has returned for around ~7 years, might help us approximate her having gone missing AT LEAST around that long ago (and obviously, nobody is willing to return this nostalgic book it appears ASRIEL checked out of the library for the kids to enjoy?? Kris at least indicates it is Asriel who refused to return it! when the kids were very young, he may have had to help them check out any books? ....or just saved them humiliation by doing it...)-- 7 years ago is definitely long enough ago that Noelle would have been very young... if Noelle is 15 now, maybe she was 7/8 back then... around 1st-3rd grade.... 'bout what she looks like in Berdly Spelling Bee memory, right? Very smalls. Twin tails. Itty bitty. The words they are spelling in that Bee are also the sort I remember in spelling tests in early elementary.... when words like December and Alaska are difficult enough....

what we don't have much room to speculate on is the age differential between Noelle and Dess; what reason do we have to assume it was 1 year difference, or 2, or 3, or 5, or 8? I don't know if I'm missing something, but I don't know of any concrete evidence of their age divide. This aspect alone prevents me from just throwing a Dess design out there!!! THE DIFFERENCES... in how we interpret her behavior... or relationship to Kris and Azzy and Noelle... is SO dependent on the differential!!

THOUGH, her hobbies/behavior suggests to ME someone QUITE young, early throes of puberty. I HIGHLY DOUBT Noelle and Dess are 10 years apart in age, I HIGHLY DOUBT she was an OLDER teen while Noelle was in elementary, considering that ASRIEL has himself only RECENTLY left for college, and I DOUBT Dess could be so much older than Azzy, who is himself not implied to presently be that old!!! LIKE, I don't think Dess was 16 years old 7 YEARS AGO! I don't think Azzy was !! As well, this entire game is a much more childish nostalgia than that.... playing pretendssss with touyssss

Toriel suggests Kris will be going to college themselves "soon" so we probably can conclude the pipeline is a very immediate, normative graduate->start university expectation for the Dreemurr kids, without years of gap in-between...

if Bratty and Catty are Asriel's peers, they read to me as still living at home, only just graduated HS... not like, mid-20s lol.... so if Asriel is say, PRESENTLY, 19, ~7 years ago at likely Dess missing event would put even him at ~12 back then. Even if we're generous and say he's a little older, he still wouldn't have ever been something like 17 while Noelle and Kris were 7... Kris and Azzy had adjacent lockers, I doubt the agegap between them is that dramatic. I would GUESS a 5 year gap between Kris and Azzy alone, at most. I couldn't imagine Dess & Noelle had a bigger gap... so again, if Dess went missing when Noelle was 7/8, maaaybe Dess could have been 12/13 for a lot of the anecdotes we are hearing about her from then. Reasonable age for a girl to be throwing tantrums and giving runaway vibes! and also NEEDING horny MTV music videos.

SO....

Based on current timeline markers I tend to imagine her around ~12, maybe 13? She's making fake band posters and hanging them around her room,, their fake band has the dumbest name ever, and Ramb ?? implies she played with Kris ?? so I think she was right at the age in which playing pretends is still alluring (but MAYBE very embarrassing or exclusive)... she has like, Lust, but it seems helpless and struggling to find better outlets than late nite TV and a sexy drawing.

[dragging hand down my face] this much contemplations of age. and I'm not even getting into her AESTHETIC. That feels so farcical. My hazy, delusional mind thinks about some Vriska qualities (a girl who is hot but still a tween in a t-shirt throwing tantrums), some Vrissy (HS2) vibes mayhaps... Toby tends to imagine pretty grounded designs, nobody is crazy thotted out, you know? You imagine the limited accessibility of clothing a small town tween even has, even a rich one.... let alone in the 90s. I doubt her options were much.... and yet, I want to imagine they were unique amongst the established cast.

I struggle with the idea of relying too closely on what is in her closet to 1:1 her look, since Noelle's closet has some stuff stored she doesn't wear presently like her angel wings, and there is what appears to be an old Kris or Asriel sweater in there anyway ?? ...

Something I ponder about is the vibe for the Raise your Bat performance in ch3, Kris is quite glamrock'd out, right? Susie also has that wild perm'd hair and bright colors. So I don't envision grunge or crusty punks were the dream, even if she had limitless resources and possibilities... the cyberworld is more sharp & vivid than that... and Noelle believes Dess would have loved to see that place. I wonder if she'd have had a blue accent color...? I think that'd be neat... Kris and Noelle are allowed to share an overlap of red, so maybe Dess and Kris could overlap blue... and of course Carol has blue accenting.

as for Noelle x Dess, I don't really have thoughts or feelings about it... I don't get that sort of impression passionately enough to think of 'ship', though I find them very cute. I guess I focus on a big compote of the Holidays and Dreemurrs, all sorts of combinations of bodies is very stimulating to run in the simulations, though I'm often super directionless and unable to go very far due to limited informations.... it's at least fun for me to imagine Dess showing Noelle slashers and such with salacious sex and murder scenes they both just kinda bite their lips over together .... if Dess liked stupid MTV bikini babes then of course she would drool over slashers....
the Ramb line has me probably the most concerned about Kris and Dess's dynamic... ... "how is she, Kris? Are you two...?" is the least you could say that is simultaneously insanely suggestive.... why did he say that....

hmmm! I like to spend some time looking at a lot of videos of the species if they exist, particularly veterinary videos (like from a reputable zoo or owner's social media) where humans are handling/next to the animal can help you get a practical understanding of the scale of each part of the body in relation to a base (of your own). A human's hand actually unfurling the wing of a barn owl does a lot more for me to rationalize scale than anything else. I find isolated photos (like a squirrel sitting on a fencepost) are the least helpful... even photos/videos of the animal cohabiting on a farm or in an enclosure (like say, some species of capybara and monkey housed together)-- even if it's not the animal you are imagining with them specifically-- will help create a general vividness to its scale in your mental library.

the more connections you make, the more footage absorbed over time, the easier it will be to add more species into your mind and run them around. At that point, you kind of play 6 degrees of separation with everything-- like-- "ohh it's THIS big next to a macaw, and I've seen a macaw next to a dutch rabbit, and this animal is roughly the size of a dutch rabbit, so..." <-or at least, enough of a working idea to feel confident bullshitting... (:

next thing I try to focus on to help constrain proportions, is INDIVIDUAL body parts in relation to one another... if you tell yourself, "the height of the cat to the shoulders is equivalent to this antelope's hoof-to-wrist", you can "check" yourself at any moment drawing. "The length of this donkey's ears should be the same as the cat's tail" "the horse's hoof should be about the same size as the bobcat's entire head"... "the sheep's back comes up to the draft horse's belly".... As you draw, you can then go "oh fuck, the hoof's WAY too big next to the tanuki's body, so I messed up the scale at some point"

of course just drawing a very flat, simplistic profile comparison of the two full bodies is always my first step. It helps to TAKE the drawings, put them on top of each other, flip them... I like using tiny simple pixels obviously, because I can really uhm drag them around the screen freely and see them in one very brief glance, gain the immediacy of silhouette. I don't feel detailed close-ups or high-res help processing at all, personally!

Obviously (probably), turning the bodies into very very basic shapes and then layering those shapes in different angles can help process. It helps to really EXCISE FROM THE MIND the general concept of a human skeleton, cranium, etc. A lot of animals have BIG RECTANGLE HEAD WITH SMALL BRAIN CASE, or BARREL BODY, so constructing them from cranium-ribs-pelvis like you often would a humanoid is no good, and you're better off treating the lioness's body as a big 3-dimensional rectangle.... and then just flipping a rectangle around, kind of as if you were drawing a couch.

as for posing specifically with a small male, it's really not unusual for young of any species to interact with older conspecifics, and this is good inspiration for how any creature deals with a much larger female! I watch a LOT of footage of baby/adolescent animals in particular because they are just so much more irresponsible with their bodies and tend to truly flop and tumble and twist themselves around littermates, get squished and sat on etc, which can be a valuable inspiration for the kind of intimacy one imagines with original characters! Adolescents often just FLING weight around and at things, much less precious about their stability, balance... I feel like, the dream is often sortof using something like, HOW lion cubs play but applying it TO something as crazy as an antelope, an animal that isn't usually crushing its body against another or laying belly-to-belly... what if a cape buffalo was as comfortable and lax with its anatomy as a bunch of ferrets in a pile? Again this is where just a greater, sheer amount of mental reference will aggregate .... and inform one another.

I like Noelle in general! Of all things added in to Deltarune (differentiating it from Undertale) she's been up there. I had admired her thoughts and perspective on fear after ch2's release. She seems like a good addition to whatever our messaging may be.

If I've seemed more reticent it would be mostly out of not having known much about her or where the story may take her, going off of only 2 chapters (one of which barely contained her!). While Asriel and Kris obviously borrow from their Undertale counterparts, and immediately justified like, a dozen delusions I had about Asriel and Chara's relationship for years; giving me in a way, much more fodder to work with. The entire GAME is about their shared childhood, so EVERYTHING is fodder. I'm also ALREADY obsessed with those two, I don't need to be worked over or convinced to care HAH.... Susie and Noelle are at a disadvantage, both being new!

It takes time for me to investigate anything, digest dialogue, check out all route alterations, the website ARG stuff. We finally got a lot more Noelle in ch4, more childhood stories with Kris, suggestions about Dess... slowly the picture of her as a complete person is forming. Seeing her HOUSE and BEDROOM is HUUUUGE!

For what its worth, I'd say Asriel likes Noelle, and Noelle likes Asriel. Ralsei's response to the Noelle tea is.... "it's soft and sweet". They shared a few vocations (both in choir, cross country ... it would appear as if Asriel's room has gold trophies while Noelle's has silver; they may have placed 1st and 2nd in at least 1 event together?), so I would imagine they spent some time together growing up, even distinctly separate from Kris or Dess! Noelle refers to him as "Azzy" (in eng) or "Azu-kun" (in JP), affectionate nickname similar to how Dess called Noelle "Elly". I'm very curious what Asriel may have called her! As it is, I like that she'd use '-kun' and not '-san' for Asriel... there's familiarity, even if Azzy is older.

I think Noelle is very similar to Asriel, and I don't think that is incidental, or a coincidence. While we know Kris became distant and cut-off after a certain point (and Noelle is nostalgic for their past!), I don't have the same impression of Asriel (I'd imagine that would come up with the various townsfolk!). I wonder if Asriel was there for her after Dess disappeared-- even if Kris was paralyzed by the sudden loss-- and if that might have something to do with Noelle taking on Asriel's hobbies.

Asriel's locker was right next to Kris's... and Kris's locker, is empty. Asriel used to carry Kris to school... keep chocolates in his pocket to give to Kris... take them out for hot chocolate after church as the family fell apart.... I wonder if Kris didn't need to use a locker, keen to borrow everything from oniichan. Unused to being independent, used to sharing, relying on him for everything.

When I look at these possible events... Dess disappearing, Asriel being there for both Kris and Noelle, and then, Asriel leaving... I can imagine Noelle wanting to take the place of Asriel for Kris, try to be the person for Kris that Asriel was for her, as their families change. Is that crazy? She is attentive, always has pencils for Kris, offers help with homework, or to talk to the teacher for them... she's accommodating, patient, even if Kris barely mumbles 2 words at a time. I always found it so BIZARRE to have this kind of dynamic with an unrelated PEER of one's own volition. She feels like an older sister! ... but if she admired Asriel's caretaking oniichan vibe-- a vibe that may have even helped calm Dess while all were together-- maybe she took it upon herself to imitate what Asriel would do for Kris, once he was gone. She knows what it feels like to rely on your big sibling...!

.... as more information clicks together, I try to think of the Holiday-Dreemurrs as a muddled unit, unique dynamics all across this 4-way intersection. I like to think of everyone as honorary siblings of one another.

Waiting patiently for more information as always (:

Ah, what I mean is a tendency of modern fandom to take incest to be synonymous with abusive/toxic/grooming/violent/rape etc lol. Mason and Margo have a very miserable dynamic. I feel as if fandom's scrupulosity or moralizing issues often mean that if one ships an incestuous ship, they have to CONSTANTLY!!! lampshade that it's Wrong and Bad and that they're not Romanticizing!!! NEVER!!!! but actually they like it BECAUSE it's Evil and Bad!!!! ... it can't be like, a saccharine fantasy. Can't be cute.

This results in like, characters whos entire canon context is being sweet/loving/supportive/adoring siblings being made into abusive vile monsters, because.... that's the only 'way' they can 'like' incest as a 'fetish' without worrying about 'what it looks like' or 'what they're implying'. It is only dirty and bad and evil and gross and terrible for everyone involved!!!!! You can't possibly depict them as still loving, sweet, attached... its like it has to Teach the Viewer this is Bad, or at least that OP Knows it is Bad lol. A kind of virtue signaling.

While I get that Some People just Objectively Like Nasty Dynamics I personally didn't used to see quite so much stark transmogrification of a dynamic, which is the key here (i.e. people who liked nasty dynamics just liked ships that were already like that in canon, like idfk, Harry/Draco.) until very recent discourse forced a lot of moralizing around broad subjects. It used to be pretty normal to see people toying with innocent or twee incestuous ships (and I still see this on like, inkbunny, pixiv, just specifically American social media output is changing)... experimental kissing, ashamed but adoring siblings, love persevering in the secret corners. It's like an archetypal romantic tragedy sort of thang, to me. These days I'm constantly running into people just assuming I am into like, Mari grooming Sunny lol, regardless of how I talk or what I draw, it's just seen as 'part of the fetish' to be abusive...

So my tweet was about me wanting there to be some sort of terminology for this phenomena, which is so recent and specific. The idea that the ONLY incest that can exist is a Mason and Margo, even if the participants are like, children who love to play Yoshi's Island together. The very fact of which sex can happen, means it is evil. SOMEONE'S gotta be a rapist and a victim LOL. This also applies to like any agegap ship at all. Very STRICT CATEGORIES. No plasticity. Mari is OLDER, and SISTER, so she HAS TO BE an evil groomer rapist and the sex has to be scary and bad for Sunny.

In the pipeline of cop->'loudly IDing as Problematic'->just being a horny person this is like, part of the middle evolution.

Honestly it's me being mean which sucks, you hate to see it.