This is a difficult distinction to make, so I'll just explain my process...

1.) beginning with a mostly-finished piece, colors sorted and blocked out.

2.) using the 'magic wand' or 'lasso' tools, select and de-select whatever areas/colors I would like dithering to be placed.

3.) using a soft brush at low opacity, or perhaps a gradient tool, I paint the soft transitions in.

4.) using 'SAVE FOR WEB' (in PS CS2), experiment with all of those sliders and settings, until I like the outcome. I usually aim for lower thresholds of color.

5.) sometimes, I like how a portion of the image looks, or color was effected, but I prefer other settings/effects on other portions of the image. So, I will 'cut out' the parts of the image I liked, and Frankenstein together an ideal arrangement from disparate settings. Sometimes, I may want the BG to be very truncated limited color, while the figures retain more shades. So, there's a lot of fiddling around.

in the end, the final result isn't any 1 setting. I may 'start over' at step 3 multiple times. I usually have a vision in my mind for how I'd like the final result to look, and am tinkering until I reach it.

I've played a handful over the years!

When Subeta was relatively new on the scene, I tried to play it, make goals, note my favorite pets/colors. But I wasn't very captivated... the art a little too complicated, designs not as simplistic as I prefer, and I didn't have a sense of the greater world around these creatures like I did with Neopets... didn't have favorite lands or environments. No particularly fun gameplay aspects I liked either... Though I remember its methods of displaying/sorting pets being pleasant, and I believe individual pets could have little collections of items, which is stimulating. There wasn't a way of accruing wealth I actually enjoyed... and no pets I was so in love with. I couldn't really 'develop' OCs within Subeta.

Aywas is another I played, for a bit longer than Subeta! I actually drew some of my Aywas at the time...
But weirdly the issue with Aywas was that, the alluring factor of it for most users was entirely customizable art... as in you could pay an on-site artist to have essentially your OC as a pet, and you could also pay to BREED given pets, including original ones, to produce some amount of babies (there were also lesser breeding coins to basically just apply a simple filter between 2 standard pets)...
I don't know how to put this, but this watered down the integrity of the world to me, and I didn't understand the 'point' of this level of customization, in terms of how I engage with petsites...? Imagine if you could just have some Elden Ring dragon on Neopets... If you could put any OC on the site, what did it mean to be 'Aywas'? I liked some of the stock critters you could find, but nobody else was really interested in playing this way, and of course the site's monetization relied mostly on these custom options. I had a weird feeling that I was playing it wrong...
I remember liking ? exploring for pets ?

Flight Rising I played for a bit, and I have an account there still, though I don't touch it much anymore. I don't find the art appealing, on the whole, and the specbio summaries of species make me feel insane (making little to no sense, as a person who loves specbio ...) ... but the breeding aspect is interesting and I like how that is programmed! I enjoyed combining unlikely pairs. I have some precious and weird dragons I drew (in my own way...) years ago. I have a lot of art of Spirals and Tundras in particular!
Flight Rising is funny... the fact the place you purchase dragons from is called an 'Auction House' made me imagine a sordid sort of world. I think within the canon of Flight Rising I'm a lunatic doing depraved and isolate things in a discreet location. The lore is so self-serious I want... to... humiliate the dragons... ? It's an odd relationship, me and FR...

I don't like wolves so Wajas is nothing to me... "17 different canine breeds" worthless.

Lioden is fine to observe, lions are cute. But I can imagine lions inside of my own mind to my own satisfaction, so I don't see a purpose for me to play it.

ChickenSmoothie is... the least of them probably?!? ldfjkl;g;kf I extremely can't engage with it... have never really understood what goes on there...

Never played goatlings either, I think this genre of petsite can't allure me, even if it is something I love, like goats... I can imagine many goats more interesting than this...

CHILDHOOD STORY is I remember a girl I knew who played a petsite that was horse-centric, but it was ... based on like, buying and selling horses on a fake ebay style site ???? and it used pictures of real horses ?????????? I could not UNDERSTAND it...

Anyway after all of that, the takeaway is that I am interested in bespoke worldbuilding, an appealing, inspiring place to play in. Neopets captivated me by creating a lot of examples of, wild and crazy shit going on around all corners of the world... the 'Gallery of Evil' was very exciting to me, and it let me imagine all kinds of things that COULD exist, like Balthazar, the Jelly Chia, Spider Grundo. Beyond that, the entire world, things suchas the Deserted Fairgrounds, Turmaculus... someone like Eliv Thade exists out there.
A right balance of showing me examples, and leaving a lot open to the imagination... I like setting my OCs in different lands, even different points in Neopian history (like before the fall of faerieland, or pre-moltara discovery)...

Obviously it isn't a petsite, but Pokémon definitely achieves this same sortof thing to me! Enough evidence of some strange or odd things, like an island of all pink Pokémon... even the flavor text on cards alone made my mind wander in fun ways, ponder how different things could intersect, what might occupy the same environment...!

Livly Island has a fun balance! This history of alchemy, a slightly different world from ours with a little more magic... an ecology of the pets... but, evidence in the NPCs, of varying levels of intelligence of Livlies, a lot of poorly understood and mysterious elements. The various lore behind some islands, like the Mandrake, or Love Laboratory, fun to roll around the mind... Rambles as larval livly...

'Petsite' is a broad genre, so many have different goals, purposes! Some focus more on fostering a community between users... some are more about gameplay itself... or customizability of the pets... there are degrees of context or lackthereof for the pets. Some are very restrictive, others are very open. Whatever petsites anyone likes probably derives from what aspect they want to interact with, and how.

My best tip, is to try to choose at least 1 decisive vision you have, and then build/move everything around that choice, try to reverse engineer the rest of the color! I usually go into something, knowing something like, "I don't want to use any brown", "I want the grass to be blue"... "I want red to be the most important shade"

Lets say, you want the bark of the trees to stylize orange, not brown... what kind of lighting could justify that, what color would the leaves be, the grass, to make that orange look natural, FEEL like brown? If the bark of the tree is orange, it might not look rational if the sky is simply normal blue, and the grass normal fully lit green (but that could be your point, if you wanted it to be). It's difficult to describe this, as I don't want to impose any absolute rules... (I dislike tutorials that just teach you to copy someone else's color! I'd like you to find your own harmony!)... but, try to pull a kind of logic gradually, out of things, based on what you want the color to do.

Maybe you want your purple character's fur to be black for this piece... we need to then move everything around that. If their fur is black, what other dark colors will become black, too? Maybe anything typically blue, purple, brown, is now black, swallowed in this lighting. What is left to 'pop'? Maybe only orange, yellow, is catching the light....

In this way, building a room or setting, around that central color inspiration, can lead or follow. "I want the bright red wagon this character is sitting in to be visually striking". Alright, that means everything else should accent that red somehow... do we desaturate everything else? Or make everything else more monochromatic? Or darken everything? Or make everything pale? How do we want the red to 'stand out'? Bright, like a light.... shining against dark background? Or do we want it to be leeching color from everything around it, feel like the world is dead?

As always, I think looking at photography helps.... or the world around you. I'm always agog at color. My husband and I's skintones, in the usual overhead lighting, are so different.... and then, under others, like a grey starlight, both so equalized, even though I know we're different. This plasticity is reality.

Nothing at all... unappealing... you can stop reading here because I will be unkind.... uh on the same scale as like, Timmy/Vicky and Dipper/Wendy or something... Mac is, fine, he is a nice boy, though not really interesting either, aesthetically or temperamentally. Frankie is actively repulsive, not uhm a fan of, surly, bitter, annoyed caretaker, she's very put upon and tired, screamy snaps, kind of gives me hives... she's very frumpy to meee, her proportions, boxy body and spaghetti thin legs, her hair, her voice, not doing it for me... really and truly on par with Vicky.... her freaking bellybutton out man, really a design choice I find abhorrent... frumpy hoodie n sneakers but then pencil skirt and belly shirt, choices were made, here...

my fav thing from Fosters is 'World'!! from 'Destination Imagination'... though I'd like him to find a little girl to love him as much as he loves her///// perhaps... ME

Lots to clarify here! I'm not talking about "the darkworld counterpart dying"! I'm not really interested in the middleground of "Asriel in a coma"...

I am also not actually thinking of "an event yet to happen" but "an event that has already happened/is already happening/is set into motion/is inevitable".

We were for some reason shown/explained how something resembling ghosts work in Deltarune, and given the strangely ambiguous wording of "Darkners patterned after a loved one" (we can take this to mean a lot of things... they might not literally be ghosts, SOULs, etc, but memories given an impression of a life). Obviously we weren't explained that mechanic for the sake of, Gerson... it will surely contribute to something at the end of the game. Much like we are taught about the function of SOULs in UNDERTALE, because it will relate to the main figures of the tragedy, Asriel and Chara. Its interesting that between Gerson and Berdly, we kind of have 'both sides' of the mechanics explored....? One or the other being compromised...

I am not so much imagining 'Ralsei' dying when I envision "Asriel dead", rather, a Kris that is engaging with or participating in the impression, right now. Like Gerson, the body could be long gone... there could be naught much to find.

I am fond of a world where Kris is responsible for Asriel's 'death' through explicit mutual planning, as much as UNDERTALE has Asriel assisting in Chara's suicide via poisoning! These are weird things to talk about liking, aren't they...? Well, UNDERTALE is a weird game... those kids did wild things.

As for "how Kris would cope", the game itself again would be seen as expressing that; a splitting of self, SOUL and BODY cleaved in order to execute some sort of 'plan' effectively. Half of this shattered self holds memories and orchestrates carefully, observing events & intervening only when necessary; while the other half dumbly & ignorantly marches along the path the other has set for them. I like to think the SOUL is only so capable of participating so much in everything, due to being blinded. Left with little more than whimsy, childlike. <- but I think that whimsy points to aspects of Kris's will, desires, impulses, being of the same self.

In UNDERTALE Chara & Asriel had an elaborate plan, and kept that secret to their graves... so, it's easy for me to imagine Kris & Asriel have something like that going on, now. Obviously, both Kris and Ralsei operate with greater awareness of the mechanisms & fate of everything, than anyone else. This all could be something Susie & Noelle will never know.

As for Noelle coping, the answer is: the same as we all deal with Dess. I don't actually envision a Body or Something to Mourn manifesting... Asriel just wouldn't come back, and nobody would be able to explain what happened. Perhaps Dess comes back, but Asriel is never heard from again, in this life! Asriel and Chara sacrifice their personhood for the UNDERGROUND, afterall. With Dess, nobody is given any closure. They are trapped in a state of 'waiting' and 'wondering'... did she abandon her baby sister? Was she kidnapped? Killed? Trapped, to this day? Noelle is stuck in the purgatory of wondering... so is Carol, who keeps Dess's room frozen in place, ready for her sudden return. Nobody is given the chance to 'move on'... nobody can 'make peace' with anything. In a way, a body would be more comforting... they could start to grieve, move on, understand what happened, let go, accept. Instead, Noelle is periodically searching her sister's name, because she could turn up.

Its kind of interesting to me we have considerations of DEATH and DISAPPEARANCE respectively in Dess & Rudy, like everyone I have no idea where we are going with this! So think of all of this as kind of trying to harmonize these concepts with Asriel & Kris, Asriel & Chara.

Sorry if this isn't quite what you asked or wanted to hear elaboration on ?
flights of fancy for me are more like, uhm what if Kris was carting around Asriel's body or SOUL in order to invoke Ralsei... what if mommy and daddy just never get to see their son again.... I kinda wonder what we have to say about 'identity', given the opening to the game. Ralsei is constantly questioning what he is, what makes up 'Ralsei'.... Asriel was a 'good kid' and struggled against religious and social expectations... maybe its best if "Asriel" is gone forever ? I wonder...

they are an inevitable aspect of spring/summertime, and I always have to decimate a few crawling around my clothes after a walk or run or sit in the grass or anything! They are unpleasant and scary to encounter, but simultaneously mundane! I wear socks that go up to my knees in the summer generally, and long skirts, so I rarely encounter a BITE, merely crawling along fabric... whim & I perform tick checks on each other after spending some time in the grass. By necessity one should worry about them, eh....

In a way I look forward to the emergence of mosquito and other bugs... winter silences and stills almost everything out here, for almost half the year. I accept the things that want to bite me... I need only do my best to be responsible. more than I'm worried about ticks, I'm, excited about grasshoppers, caterpillars, bumblebees, dragonflies, frogs, everything else I'll get to see while laying in the grass.

here is interesting footage of crows removing ticks from other animals!!->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfDSBrsVGx8
slurp....

it is a 'Ship of Theseus' situation. Over the years, Adventure Time has turned over directors, gradually shifting. For quite a while it would ebb/flow into/out of things I like, with seasons 1-4 being 10/10 all-around and further seasons now and again splintering into a lot of things I both don't care about and that even at times seemed to compete or contradict each other's plot lines, as naturally occurs when you start to have a faster turn-over rate and shifting teams. I've heard it famously wasn't fun to work on by the latter half. WELL. its less fun to watch....

I liked individual storyboard artists and voices in AT! I liked a philosophy to it. I'm not really a 'franchise' kind of person-- I don't like something just because it "is" a certain Intellectual Property, like Marvel, or Star Wars. I like individual artists or sense of direction! This is why I'm pretty openly harsh on like, book packaging franchises with 7 ghost writers under 1 name generating slop (cough)... it's sort of the definition of a kind of art I don't find value in. (<- AT is not this, just explaining a feeling I have for context).

I feel like in some dramatic cases people will grock this, like what is going on right now with Little Nightmares 3 no longer being produced by Tarsier. Some people value 'the World' and 'the franchise' more than Dave Mervick's writing. Most people admit the new game objectively is inferior. I think without Dave, it's just a mediocre horror game without anything to say-- it lacks a 'voice'. I wouldn't stick around just because it 'is Little Nightmares'. My love is conditional.

'Fiona and Cake' has VERY little in common with the series I loved, as much as someone watching the first Star Wars movies might strongly dislike a Spinoff series coming out NOW on Disney+. It's Adventure Time... in name only.

That said I fell off the wagon by Distant Lands-- I gave it a fair shot but it really, really didn't work for meeee. I enjoyed even quite later things like Stakes or Islands so I was optimistic but, ah, no. I would call it 'insufferable'... for me...

Fionna and Cake in particular though, what I see of it is-- -- I don't -- I don't know why anyone would think I would like it...? based on what I love in AT...? I'll see a screencap of like. "and here's turtle princess... as a normal human... and THIS normal human in a town.. that's... embryo princess! and THIS background human... is BMO!" its like, showing me a picture of a toddler in a red t-shirt and going, "look its Elmo!" a large bearded man "and THATS snuffaluffagus!" where am I, why would I want this ?? I've seen enough embarrassing screencaps... a lot of it makes me cringe gklfd;hfdh... like the most boring fanart made canon... OUUUGHH

The designs and world look... boring and not whimsical..? I don't need... older buff finn.... I do not like... the setting... I do not like Simon... the fundamentals about why I liked AT, why I liked Finn and Marcy particularly, are not here .... unlike a lot of people I very frequently completely rewatch the original series top to bottom!!! I feel kind of insane as a result like I'm the only person noticing It Is Nothing Alike... kind of ghoulishly at this point it feels like what I hate about a lot modern cartoons wearing the skin of a cartoon I liked

It's interesting to talk about just the two; there's kind of a blind spot for it in fandom... It's like a phantom.

This total lack is some of my motivation to depict them, whether it can be interpreted in a "shippy" context or more like "honorary siblings". I can chew on a lot of concepts, loaded and non, it's all interesting. I would call my thoughts on it "ambiguous", even to myself. What does Asriel feel...? I don't know... hypotheticals abound. It's worthy of discussion.

With DR/UT I don't know quite what the expectations are towards gender in-world, so I can't go with you on some of these ideas. For example, I don't have an impression that same-sex relationships are a problem in UT/DR? I don't know how much of a factor being the same type of monster is (as we ?only see nuclear families composed of identical monsters). I don't personally like to blanket down interpretations of gender dynamics... and in reality, expectations or archetypes of gender to kids in these ages would come from their environment, so to discuss some of what you've mentioned, I would break down the world Asriel and Noelle were raised in, their town, their parents, their religion, and their individual relationships to that religion... I wrote a version of this going into that, but it was not interesting honestly, and felt a little forced, so, rewriting...

Dwelling, if I'm being honest, the main thing I'm thinking about regarding Asriel & Noelle in particular, is .... individual dynamics, what those relationships ask of you. In this case I just don't think being a boy or girl is really relevant in the context of their dynamic ? Not to them and not really to people close to them ? I actually don't think it ever would become the centrally relevant thing to anyone at all...? Their connection is so inherently platonic...

Whatever dysphoria is felt by Asriel, has little baring on what his relationship with a younger, delicate girl like Noelle would be... I could see it as a problem with girls like Catty or Bratty, who do hold a certain (romantic/sexual) expectation over him, Hot Teen Boy Peer. Not an expectation Noelle has, not something Asriel could imagine fulfilling, even if they got intimate somehow, because it's never been part of their friendship.... If anything I think being around Noelle could make Azzy feel more... calm.... because he wouldn't think she would expect, or ask him to be... masculine or cool, or sexy...? She could admire his pretty voice or appreciate his helping put up her hair... their hobbies are very neutral and shared. Can't they just play Dragon Blazers ...

Honestly think Burgerpants is more dysphoria inducing (because he wants a guy friend to help him cruise for chicks)... (and Asriel isn't that and doesn't want to be that)...

Ahhh while looking up references for the "hair up / hair down" drawings, I was struggling, couldn't thread keywords to produce a useful reference... "girl putting hair up" "girl tying up hair" .... wound up having to think differently, search things like.... "slumber party girls playing with hair" ... when I think of Asriel helping Noelle with her long hair, I think he gets to feel simple and enjoy pretty ribbon;;;; I don't think he has to worry about 'being a boy' with her or 'leading' ? ... he's only supposed to be soft and nice... for the anxious girlie. I don't see the expectations as being very different from Dess, which is where the main factor comes from, to me: age and sense of responsibility.

I can't see him perceiving this "Lead the Girl" or "Herd the Kids" kind of mentality, or associating liking a girl with being in some way dominant or in-charge or 'a top', ?? Don't know what him being 'a bottom' has to do with, his dynamic with Noelle ?? That isn't a pressure I see her bringing out ?? They have a lot in common, so... why would entirely new ideas come in, for either of them? I don't know why it would...

I would say.... Asriel is stifled by the 'role' to be comforting + supportive and yet the expectation to not request a level of intimacy meant for only "peers". This is more age-contingent than gender. Obviously, he can't date them, this goes without saying, but arguably, he isn't even meant to access a level of platonic reliance, either. I could see the age skew preventing him from feeling like it is acceptable to be asking (younger kids, his little sibling's peers and friends) for reassurance, comfort, his own coddling, a hand to wipe HIS tears away-- it would be inappropriate to ask this of younger kids, to go to someone as anxious as Noelle for it, or possibly, to break down in front of Kris (it's probably very significant 'Ralsei' is doing this now!). And yet, his peers can't offer him consolation, either... ! He doesn't feel safe, or trust them, with that vulnerability... and they ask him to be things he isn't. Kris & Noelle could feel the most compatible with him... but, there is a kind of role due to their ages.
I kind of think this might be why Noelle is able to grow & challenge her fears while Asriel rots in generic college pipeline, unable to make his own decisions... It may also be why Kris can be bold & act out, but Asriel cannot. They both had Asriel's support, but I don't know if Asriel felt it was OK to ask for help from them....

I definitely think about a "conflict of interests", but in the sense that Asriel's "interest" is in "not being inconvenient" "not making anything harder for anyone" "not asking for anything" "being helpful when asked for"... I think any of his own desires then induce "conflict". Ralsei is so scared to have 'desires', doesn't know what to do if he isn't acting strictly in his role as the Prophecy outlines. He shouldn't have his own dreams... that isn't what he is "for". Even in a world where Asriel had some crazy thought to kiss Noelle, if it struck him in a sudden moment, he would probably see the impulse as selfish, inconvenient, unwanted, bizarre, not useful to expose, ruinous, destructive, wayward. It would only create chaos. It would qualify as an intrusive thought, upsetting & unwanted. Even if it was simultaneously alluring, or arousing....

I have interest in that kind of 'conflict of interests'. I don't really see 'being a boy' creating a 'conflict of interests' in comparison to like ... everything else in both of their lives. I like het and all but it doesn't really have any meaningful baring on Noelle/Asriel to me. This question may have made me feel weird, so I'm sorry if I'm at all coarse... "show her how a boy is supposed to care for her" is confusing to me, I... think he is just trying to be niceys ... in a generic way.

Again relating Asriel to Dess, I consider it very possible Dess wouldn't have felt it was OK to vent her worst nightmares onto Noelle, her already very anxious little sister! If that 'lost girl' text really is Dess, I would doubt she told Noelle about her repeated nightmare of being shut into the darkness! It would just stress poor Noelle out, right? Hence the older kids feeling isolated... becoming lost in the dark.

After Dess is gone, I could see Asriel trying to support Noelle... by this nature, I don't think him being a boy is effecting much; though his demeanor could be more appealing, or Noelle could find him elegant, charming, princely etc! Which would be the distinction... I just don't imagine much would change if Asriel were a girl, honestly? I don't think his anxieties/pressures with Noelle specifically have to do with gender.... I think she already sees him as a literal role model, as laid out in my last REVO about them!?!? I don't think 'male' is a word in her skull about it... he was, probably the best model of the calm, helpful teen she would like to be.

On the general topic of dysphoria, roles, expectations, I think it's multi-layered for Asriel... I don't think he can fulfill expectations for anyone, in all directions, I think he broadly flops... let's imagine it like...
To girls like Bratty and Catty, Asriel is a Hot Boy Category, sure... he seems to be easily steamrolled and overwhelmed by them, stories of him are not very impressive or flattering...
I don't think he can excel at it... I don't know if he wants to, but he probably doesn't feel good disappointing people, either.
Asriel has a poorly-written compliment for Catty in the pocket of his church jacket; similarly, when Ralsei tries to flirt with Hathy, he fails miserably to come up with something appropriate...

"Dear Catty, thank you for the honor of this junior dance.
Your eyes are like whirlpools of molten cat food...
... the expensive kind you have to buy at the pet store.
Signed... Asriel"
"Hathy, your beauty is just... transcendent.
Your hair is like a waterfall of...
... wait, um, do you have hair, or..."

Bratty refers to herself as making Azzy give her his first kiss....

For whatever reason even BURGERPANTS asks Kris to, NOT tell Azzy he misses him... and Toby once joked about Asriel giving Burgerpants a religious ska CD, and him lying to Azzy about listening to it while never actually intending to (it is too lame ass) (also, Dess doesn't open the ska CD Azzy gave her either...!! FLOP!!!!)

... I think he's good at... running fast ... and singing beautifully... and being oniichan to Kris...
but terrible at actually fulfilling expectations in him socially, maybe particularly with peers...
with girls, OR with boys...
in effect, he's a good-looking loser.

A guy like BURGERPANTS probably would prefer a cool womanizing wingman to help him pick up "CHICKs",
but Asriel has weird religious guilt around dating, so he's useless!!!
Wouldn't Bratty prefer a misbehaving naughty boy down to fool around, who won't tattle to mommy?
AND yet, wouldn't MOMMY prefer a boy who can say 'no' to a girl, who won't come home confessing to a kiss? he's failing everyone by being this way, possibly even his own desires, and his own values. CONSEQUENCES OF BEING A SAD WIMP.

... so when I think about his dynamic with Noelle, I would think it's unique. Her impression of him may be quite different from his peers (who may find him kind of lame, or funny, or difficult to connect to)... that "princely" effect, I doubt that angle even exists for anyone else. He's a "nice boy" to most parents, but that doesn't induce social clout amongst teens. But with Noelle, maybe Asriel has a natural chemistry, so he's not constantly fucking up or looking incompetent. He can help her with Cross Country, they can stretch or warmup together, he can privately coach her in Choir. She's not asking more of him than he can achieve, right? He's impressive just the way he is.

I would like to think being with Noelle feels 'easier' than many things, for Azzy... like he's not forcing himself so hard into the wrong-shaped hole. He's not doing things unnatural... Burgerpants or Bratty ask more unnatural things of him....

I would hope it feels comforting for him as much as it does her, to have some kind of proof he's not completely incapable of functioning with anyone but Kris... but also, she's younger, so he shouldn't let it make him feel too accomplished! I kinda see Asriel and Kris as both stunted... struggling to grow up... scared to do so.

I could IMAGINE a young Noelle having a brief crush on Asriel haha, just the most unintimidating safe boy you could EVER imagine, voice of an angel, downcast eyes, big lashes. Might as well be a boyband member, right? At that age where you don't fully comprehend the barrier that is age group.... But that's conjecture... it's just novel to imagine, not necessarily like, my headcanon. Also very funny to imagine a mostly female-attracted girl's first crush being the most cartoonishly effeminate boy you could dream up.

However I think we're just disagreeing on interpretations at this point, I guess I'M the older folk imagining she could crush on him ?? not "just because they are opposite genders" however, and I can't think of a canon character in a position to think something so WILD about differently-aged kids ??? who is saying something like that about like, the shy 7 year old girl and the 12 year old choir boy ??? I know it happens in the real world SOMEtimes but like, who in actual Deltarune setting would ever make such a weird joke... don't think it would Noelle/Kris typically either....

We kind of have a weird canon circumstance of someone close to Kris/Noelle forcing a loaded scenario on them-- Dess making them ride the ferris wheel together.... but I think Dess knew them both very well, and had very idiosyncratic reasons for that action. I also think Berdly has reasons for insisting Kris is jealous lol... I honestly think Toby is more invested in these kinds of small town familiarity vibes.

If like... Rudy or someone thought baby Noelle had a crush on Azzy at some point, I would believe his perspective and would not think he was just filling in gendered archetypes... I just have no idea who would impose the narrative for 'generic' reasons. I think Toby is more intrigued/stimulated by these complexities.

I don't think the Dreemurr & Holiday kids were seen as something for the parents to worry about for whatever reasons......... no, visible tension.....

it's hardly here nor there but, PERSONALLY I think Kris's entire problem in life is, being a different class of being, not a threat in 'that way', not a viable bachelor, not a potential boyfriend. Kris has so squarely secured self as 'childish court jester' I do not think , hardly ANYONE, not NOELLE not their PARENTS!!! saw Kris as someone to even JOKE about dating anyone ... Kris just, salting their own game in this way, and on top of that, being a human. It is BECAUSE of this status that, Kris was, ALLOWED TO JUST... HIDE IN GIRL'S BEDROOMS... CLOSETS... BREAK INTO THEIR HOUSE... and seen as only "haha hehe ohhh rascal!" MIGHT AS WELL NOT HAVE ANY GENDER OR SEXUALITY AT ALL TO THE WORLD AT LARGE!!! I see it as a bed Kris made for self and has to lie in, but hence the SOUL starting to act out in total opposition and try to FORCE!!!!! some sort of romantic implications onto Noelle, while the other side of Kris is desperately strangling that aspect back into silence. WE DON'T DATE ANYONE!!!! NOBODY WANTS THAT!!!!

While idk, what is Asriel? Ideally to his family I suppose he is a eunuch. Perhaps to himself too.
Wouldn't it be better for him to have NO wants? To just be perfect Son and perfect Oniichan forever?

on another random dysphoria thot.....

I always wonder if the 'pageant' Noelle & Dess were pictured in, was a gender-exclusive event or not? To me 'pageant' connotes that, while I'd think it'd just be called a 'play' or 'production' otherwise, and we'd hear about more than just the girls being in it ? It's technically not a gendered term, though naturally when you google 'pageant' you're going to get exclusively female-centric events. FOR THE SAKE OF THIS DISCUSSION, let's IMAGINE the 'pageant' Dess & Noelle were in, was exclusively female. Something Asriel could not 'audition for' as a child.... The Angel in this pageant could be a role he watched other girls his age fulfil, whether they even enjoyed it or not.

Because Azzy and Kris were... obsessively crafting angel wings... and programming some rainbow-winged 'angel' in their video game... I wonder if there was longing in Asriel to get to play the 'angel', or wear the gown, the wings... a little sad, confusing envy to see Noelle get to wear the wings for months.... similar to Kris's desire for their family's horns.

Ralsei obviously likes pretty ribbons, does curtsy... the Prize Counter that RAMB sits at represents Asriel's desk (pencup of 'swords' and a single 'mouse' sit on it) and hands you out ribbons as prizes ??? Is this anything... are those in the desk? Did Kris hoard those in there at some age, or did Asriel have them on-hand...? We know Noelle used to wear her hair in ribbons... she is nostalgic for them.

Religion disproportionately effects different kids of the town... Kris seems to shrug off everything & pay no attention, Asriel seems very effected by it all & easily upset. For all we know, Kris might disrespect the church precisely because they could witness it stressing out oniichan... hurting him... I don't have an impression it hurts Noelle in the same way ?

The biggest 'hurdle' I see between Asriel and Noelle is that they both don't take a lot of 'risks' by nature and both struggle with giving up or assuming the other person doesn't care... Noelle can't even be sure Kris is her friend, since Kris won't say so out loud... and has never complimented her... both Noelle and Azzy mostly follow the rules, crumple under punishment, don't like to be inconvenient or in the way, don't presume they are attractive or interesting, are easily cajoled by people with stronger will (Berdly & Bratty their respective tormentors cornering them, difficulty saying 'NO!!' to them!). Seem to have a tough time controlling their own fate. Weight of cold mother, weight of religious dogma... Kris is mysteriously capable of commanding & controlling them both in the Darkworld....

I'd describe Noelle as a bit more liberated than Asriel, challenging her fears and anxieties as she ages. It feels as if she is bucking more firmly against her household NOW, while Asriel made it all the way to college age without rocking the boat much.

I think "saving Asriel" is always a challenge in all of these games.

I kind of fundamentally think for anything to happen between Noelle & Asriel, it would have to be pushed by Noelle herself, if we don't have Kris in the room!

Though mostly, when I think of Noelle/Asriel/Kris, I see Asriel's perception of his position as merely a kind of social lubricant... providing additional support for Kris, enabling them both, but assuming the two will eventually (naturally) want him to Leave Them Alone. Accepts this, noble. Removing Desire From My Heart.

Not dissimilar to how I think Kris and Asriel see themselves in relation to Susie & Noelle in canon. Here to help the two get together, but not expecting to stick around. Kris tries to instigate romantic moments (like handing Susie the rose...), and Ralsei tries to gently correct Kris when they derail (if Kris says they will take Noelle to the festival, Ralsei will remind Kris that Noelle will want to go with Susie...). Kind of have an impression 'the plan' involves setting them up, hence Kris furiously kicking self for crazed derailing. I kinda similarly imagine if ASRIEL had some sort of WILD HARE and in a moment of madness, groped for Noelle, he would ALSO later strangle himself like, WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT IS NOOOOT THE POINT!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY WANTS THAT TO HAPPEN NOT EVEN YOU!!! YOU WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO BE HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

haha AUUGHHHHGH so much is unknown, so this will be my vague impressions based on what we do know about either's small comments! followed by DELUSION.

Asriel was so innately accommodating to Kris, I have to believe he was considerate of Noelle's paranoia & sensitivity! If Asriel is keyed into signs of anxiety, I think for the entire group (Kris, Noelle, Dess...) he may have offered solutions catered to whoever, whenever needed.

In Noelle's memory of the night exploring behind the graveyard, she takes care to remember not only Dess's wiping her tears, but the "warm sleeves that smelled like cinnamon", Azzy's jacket.

M-maybe the ICE-E story from the ARG conveys something well... (it is written by a young Noelle)
**"Story UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!

My sister burned the box in the grass to kill it and it smeld like charcle pizza

she burned out ice-e eyes and he looked EVIL and azzy said took it and said we should berry the box and kris duged a whole in the ground in the greive yard and I was so scared a zombie woud come up and i tried to say kris I’m scared and they turned around with the box over there face and I screemed so dess hitted them and took it away and through it away and i think its going to come kill me"**

...you can see how at times, Dess is not as helpful to Noelle as even she'd probably prefer to be, and Asriel is here to offer a more peaceful solution for Noelle's anxiety... while still thinking whimsically enough to bury a pizza box, lol. This kind of solution is sweeter than a purely logical and pragmatic parental one, I like that it still engages in her magical thinking.

I-I think that sort of 'prince charming' thing... is entirely possible... I feel embarrassed to discuss it, but... yeah...!

We see identical trophies in Azzy and Elly's rooms, but Asriel's are gold while hers are silver... a medal in the darkworld is described as being from a 'legend athlete', and Noelle says it belongs to Asriel! They likely were respectively 1st & 2nd place (I wonder if anyone else was even IN Cross Country at that time?).
He also had a beautiful voice in choir, contrasting to young Noelle, who states to have been so bad at singing that Kris would cover their ears...
I wouldn't be surprised if Asriel was a key reason Noelle could participate in things like Cross Country, and Choir... or going further, if she chose those vocations in order to be around him more often. Especially after Dess is gone.

I also think being around Asriel would temper fear of Kris for her, as Asriel of course loved and cared for Kris, and Kris loved Azzy. It would be easy to understand, "Kris isn't actually that bad, or Azzy wouldn't love them so much".

The cinnamon-scented sleeves and Ralsei's traits convince me Asriel was also a baker, I'd like to think he would bake treats for all of them, and have a few in his pocket for emergency consolation. An older boy pulling a cinnamon cookie from his backpack while you're crying, because you tripped at the finish line of your race... he could have a unique grace to him. If Noelle grows up to be the sort of person... always stocked with extra pencils for Kris, gifting them peppermint cookies, I would assume she 'got that' from Asriel.

I kind of think of a funny chain of effect, where ...
Asriel was there for Noelle when Dess disappeared, taking on an older brother role for her,
and then, when Asriel goes to college, Noelle tries to do for Kris what Azzy did for her-- a sort of older sister role for Kris (though I doubt she could articulate it as that herself).
She could plainly see Kris freezing up & lost, think of herself, & think of how much what Azzy did meant to her. It isn't only what Kris needs, but it is also what Asriel would want, isn't it? It's a favor to Asriel as much as Kris.

All of these qualities... of someone older, kind, soft-voiced, talented in things she would like to be good with...
I think Asriel could have been more of a role-model for Noelle than Dess was... Not to dismiss Dess's incredible value to Noelle-- but I doubt Noelle necessarily wanted to 'be that' for others! Maybe there were even times she longed to be able to provide more comfort to Dess, a troubled girl denting dozens of instruments, suffering nightmares...

There are many similarities between Noelle & Azzy, and I don't chalk it up to coincidence... but a willful cultivation, imitation, admiration, on Noelle's part. And Asriel's....?

I'm always kind of transfixed on Ralsei's response to the "Noelle tea"...
It's soft and sweet.
in my opinion his response to Kris & Susie tea are artificial (describes simply blueberry & grape), because he can't uh, reveal his vast depth of knowledge to either of them at that time (prophey...). But for whatever reason, even though it makes no sense for 'his character' at this point in the narrative (after all, Noelle and Ralsei hardly interact at all-- the Ralsei tea is completely empty for Noelle, because she doesn't "know" him), he describes the Noelle tea beautifully. A tasteful peek into Asriel's feelings towards Noelle?

AS FOR THE REST OF THIS QUESTION!!!

(at the moment, I think of group playing as entirely AU timeline stuff, forking off from childhood, the sort of thing that would derail the entire timeline as we know it... I worry Azzy growing up only ever felt he could 'let go' enough to 'play' around Kris, at home, HENCE having such a controlled and mundane life, trapped in generic college pipeline... but in an ideal world, where things went a little differently, Kris could have pulled Azzy into joining group play!!! I'm not sure the canon Azzy got to express himself so freely... sooner ah, hiding behind anonymized agents like a faux spam e-mail lol)

Laughing at "good cop bad cop", this is not a bad way to put it at all. It's especially apt because while I think Asriel tries to support or accommodate Noelle, uhm do damage control for Young Kris Madness, his ultimate uhm... 'objective'... is still to enable whatever Kris wants, LOL. The Good Cop is still a cop and both ultimately want you to, follow the same order. One is just better at presenting the objective. The ILLUSION of choice.

To put it into practice, you can imagine the White Mage captured by the King of Card Kingdom... Jevil being crazy, frees her, but also instigates a lot of chaos and difficulty (also, Kris plays the King who imprisoned her in the first place)... Seam (Asriel) can intervene and offer her escape in underhanded, subdued methods, using his magic, without drawing undue attention. Seam is a little mysterious, but calm, explains to the Mage her options, risks, possible outcomes, what they can do, and I think would offer her much more agency in decision-making (being interested IN those decisions, regardless of where the outcome may place them) (while Jevil would corner her into make-or-break altercations that force her to react immediately, fight for her freedom or submit to the King's pawns) (... but as you can see, both ultimately are 'interested' in her 'reaction'... making their goals compatible)... though Jevil and Seam both crave excitement, and they both like to play. Despite his 'better nature', Seam is drawn into Jevil's energy and ability to utterly upend status quo (if you think about it, this is what someone like Kris does for someone like Asriel).

Noelle may be a fearful person, but she's also curious, playful, and tempted by the allure of frightening things. Jevil isn't a tormentor, and one learns that he can be bopped without repercussion, lol. He is 'crazy' but he's not 'bad'. She can understand why Seam needs Jevil... a mage who would only perform duties, under court's orders, given no intervention. She isn't so different!

One can imagine Seam 'training' the White Mage in accessing her Ice Powers, while Jevil forces her into situations to truly use those powers, to access the intensity and purpose necessary to force it from her. The White Mage could freeze the King (also Kris), and Seam would be forced to help as the entire kingdom comes rushing at them!

^ this is all what 'leads' to my drawing of Seam, Jevil, & the White Mage 'escaped' into the woods... Asriel playing with Kris and Noelle more passively, lightly, at first (voice quiet, gestures small, in the privacy of their bedroom... scared of a parent coming home, overhearing, scolding or asking questions)... doing little more than an NPC, only seeking to enable whatever Kris and Noelle are doing.... but suddenly, he is swept into the shocking narrative, astounded by Noelle's decision to upend the entire kingdom-- an act which severs Seam from his post, the structure of their life. If there is no King to answer to, what does Seam act for? If the Kingdom falls, what does its mage do? <- symbolic itself for Asriel, who is bound to obligations as a 'responsible older brother', or the one who must always 'know better' and 'set a good example'... what if we pretend to destroy the institution, lol.

In a fenzy of immersion, Seam grabs Jevil & the White Mage, casts a quick spell to temporarily pause time, and sails them all out a window... (for real though, Asriel suddenly ushers them all through the window of their bedroom, an act which would make Kris feel like, YES YES YES YES YES!!! YES YES!!!! AUGUGHRHGG!!!!! YES ASRIEL!!!! THIS IS THE BEST EVERRR LETS GO LETS GO!!!)

... so you get the idea! One can imagine this with all sorts of scenarios, and I think the three can choose to 'reset' any RP, try it from another angle...
As for how she feels, getting to somehow 'access' Asriel as a playmate, would be a little humbling, I think! She would have to know it is rare, and even pick up on his shyness, hesitancy! The attention WOULD be exciting and fun, Kris would show new sides of their own personality, narratives, dynamics, the likes of which could shock her.

On a way less cerebral note I think Asriel's 'favorite' games to play with Kris privately were often like, uhm well Ralsei Rancher lol, catpetterz. We have evidence uh, both Kris and Azzy like to get a treat and be called good and pet and do tricks and walkies. So that sucks, and we have to live with it every day, no matter how painful it is. I could see a 'generous' Kris thinking it is doing Asriel a 'favor' to instigate a Ralsei Rancher RP. And Asriel would simply have to endure everyone pulling his bridle, petting his face, brushing him, riding him...

Must acknowledge Noelle enjoys Catpetterz and, AS FAR AS MY INSANE PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF AMBIGUOUS EVENTS GOES, Asriel programmed mods that infected her game via Spam e-mails Noelle was gullible and kind enough to click. She cared kindly for her pipis, which leaves due to happiness. This makes you think. *stares into the sunset* but I don't expect anybody to 'go with me' on this. In this indirect and desperate way, Asriel managed to 'play' with Noelle in her silly, girly petsim. Like a SCREAM escaping a TOMB.

I sooner think of Kris & Noelle 'teasing' Asriel, half by accident, but I also think it could turn more mutually willful over time... it's in Kris's nature to tease and taunt Asriel in my opinion, a history of pushing his buttons, liking to rile a reaction out of his OCs (isn't it more fun if the horse kicks & bucks, and even more fun if it bites? it's so rare!! also, whatever tf Spamton & Tenna have, and Seam & Jevil... they like this kind of on-and-off-again playing-fighting-loving nonsense, IT'S SICKENING)... while Noelle, she's historically a pretty powerless person, but by that coin I think allured by a sense of power! If she caught on to Asriel flustering or 'reacting' to her, I could see her pushing a hoof to the gas pedal, haha... I mean, what WOULD a young Seam do, being flirted with, being invited to dance, being told they are cute or pretty, being brushed, being dressed in a ribbon? EVEN JEVIL DOES NOT KNOW THIS! Honestly, EVEN SEAM DOES NOT KNOW THIS!!! The Court Mage doesn't... attend the ball....! The thing about having a, little girlie girl in the room, is, she presents your OCs with situations you wouldn't naturally invent, amongst yourself, in your dumbassed "MAN COUNTRY".

I think Asriel and Kris are a LITTLE helpless to more insipid whims, even if they both ENJOY a romantic or sensual turn in MEDIA, secretly... they are like, stupid, programmed to create Spamton & Tenna dynamics, at best sortof 'dancing around' an idea of 'lovers', but quickly ESCAPE POD-ing into chicanery, nonsense, fighting.... (and unfortunately I'm sure Kris loves Hitting and Asriel loves Being Hit... your fate is to be Yoshi and Mario Throwing Yoshi Into Pit).

anyway... on the subject of Asriel being teased or what have you... it's difficult & painful to be indulged, and Asriel has the most guilt & weight on his shoulders as the 'older' one here who just isn't sure when to 'say no'... Kris is bold and Noelle is curious, the two could wind up giving Asriel a panic attack haha... there is definitely an 'event horizon' where Asriel would be forced to confront his degree of participation, of course he would have the burden of being the one who must say 'no' if something 'goes too far'. But could he? And would uh, Kris let him? Would Noelle? What if it isn't a matter of 'what Asriel truly wants' but 'what is right/wrong'? Would they really argue in favor of 'what is right/wrong' over 'what Asriel truly wants'? What if it's just a 'game', is Asriel 'wrong' to even see it as 'more than that'? Is the panic attack ITSELF dirty and gross to have? Why be so upset over a 'game'? It's pretend, isn't it? If Asriel is soooo concerned with 'getting in trouble', or an even more strange & abstract religious kind of guilt, what can Kris or Noelle say, do? I can't imagine they would want concede to his miserable guilt!!! Kris would become stubborn, maybe even agitated, while Noelle would by sympathetic... so you kind of weirdly have a Kris Bad Cop Noelle Good Cop suddenly shining a light upon Perpetrator Asriel. Except that like, they just want to know what you want.

Pressing my brain though, god it's endless, I have to stop at some point. It's easier for me to access Seam & Jevil as there is an easy 'role' for Noelle as a magic user, but what the FUCK would Spamton and Tenna do with her? Fight over her, Looney Tunes Nonsense eachother for her allegiance? I describe Tenna & Spamton as like if a Wile-E Coyote and an Elmer Fudd or something were interacting, 2 flops designed to never 'win', there is no Bugs Bunny or Tweetey getting the upperhand, they are Both Underdogs who Suck and Can't Win. Maybe Kris would do everything in their POWER to never RP Tenna with Noelle, like NO!!!!!!!!!!!! And to be fair Tenna is like, sycophantic, simpering, pathetic, submissive, beseeching, needs reassurance & praise, everything I think Kris struggles with real shame about, and would struggle to show Noelle. I see 'Jevil' as an 'easier' persona, by nature having no 'allegiance', so Kris doesn't have to really 'answer' to anything, can always fall back on, 'well it would be Fun or Funny, so Jevil did it'.... so you don't have to 'validate' like, why Jevil would kiss Noelle or Seam, He's a Crazy Guy. Tenna I do think you do more than a gameshow with that fool and it's like, We Have To Euthanize Him. We Have to Put Him In a Sack and Throw him Into The Creek. SHOOT HIM.

By that same coin I think Spamton, for Asriel, is an INHERENTLY!!! 'anonymized' entity and dropping the mask and misdirection that is typing e-mails and programming code, well I don't. Think he could do it. But uhm it would be interesting to think of Asriel's psychotic self e-mailing Noelle from the spam account in the night and Noelle finally getting to 'catch on' that this entity was... either Kris, or Asriel, the whole time (not sure if she could work out WHOMST on her own!!). Uhm but my mind goes a little insane thinking about an Asriel secretly communing with Noelle via e-mails. Does she tell ... them, about these e-mails, or, does she remain hush-hush, if the e-mails ask her to be?

all of that. And there are so many more layers to access it's honestly neverending. I think Kris Does like to be put in jail and talked down to, I mean. NIGHTMARE is so ...................... mmnnn horny. I do think it is an Asriel. It talks like Flowey. Kris likes to misbehave and be, punished. Kris likes to be teased. It's like level 100 to get to this point... as a child I think Kris is reluctant to cede much of anything to Noelle, a little bit 'basic' in that regard.... easily overstimulated and frightened of indulgence, I would imagine....
the Asriel and Kris alone who indulge things like this (probably only via the opaque shield of programming/scripting a ROMhack together... even more obtuse than e-mails) are , microdosing a psychotic break for the two of them. I'm still fighting for my life, groping the walls in the dark, on this subject. But it will be acknowledged. There is an aspect of 'switchery' to Kris/Asriel AND/OR Noelle/Kris which twists the entire world upon its head.