It's interesting to talk about just the two; there's kind of a blind spot for it in fandom... It's like a phantom.

This total lack is some of my motivation to depict them, whether it can be interpreted in a "shippy" context or more like "honorary siblings". I can chew on a lot of concepts, loaded and non, it's all interesting. I would call my thoughts on it "ambiguous", even to myself. What does Asriel feel...? I don't know... hypotheticals abound. It's worthy of discussion.

With DR/UT I don't know quite what the expectations are towards gender in-world, so I can't go with you on some of these ideas. For example, I don't have an impression that same-sex relationships are a problem in UT/DR? I don't know how much of a factor being the same type of monster is (as we ?only see nuclear families composed of identical monsters). I don't personally like to blanket down interpretations of gender dynamics... and in reality, expectations or archetypes of gender to kids in these ages would come from their environment, so to discuss some of what you've mentioned, I would break down the world Asriel and Noelle were raised in, their town, their parents, their religion, and their individual relationships to that religion... I wrote a version of this going into that, but it was not interesting honestly, and felt a little forced, so, rewriting...

Dwelling, if I'm being honest, the main thing I'm thinking about regarding Asriel & Noelle in particular, is .... individual dynamics, what those relationships ask of you. In this case I just don't think being a boy or girl is really relevant in the context of their dynamic ? Not to them and not really to people close to them ? I actually don't think it ever would become the centrally relevant thing to anyone at all...? Their connection is so inherently platonic...

Whatever dysphoria is felt by Asriel, has little baring on what his relationship with a younger, delicate girl like Noelle would be... I could see it as a problem with girls like Catty or Bratty, who do hold a certain (romantic/sexual) expectation over him, Hot Teen Boy Peer. Not an expectation Noelle has, not something Asriel could imagine fulfilling, even if they got intimate somehow, because it's never been part of their friendship.... If anything I think being around Noelle could make Azzy feel more... calm.... because he wouldn't think she would expect, or ask him to be... masculine or cool, or sexy...? She could admire his pretty voice or appreciate his helping put up her hair... their hobbies are very neutral and shared. Can't they just play Dragon Blazers ...

Honestly think Burgerpants is more dysphoria inducing (because he wants a guy friend to help him cruise for chicks)... (and Asriel isn't that and doesn't want to be that)...

Ahhh while looking up references for the "hair up / hair down" drawings, I was struggling, couldn't thread keywords to produce a useful reference... "girl putting hair up" "girl tying up hair" .... wound up having to think differently, search things like.... "slumber party girls playing with hair" ... when I think of Asriel helping Noelle with her long hair, I think he gets to feel simple and enjoy pretty ribbon;;;; I don't think he has to worry about 'being a boy' with her or 'leading' ? ... he's only supposed to be soft and nice... for the anxious girlie. I don't see the expectations as being very different from Dess, which is where the main factor comes from, to me: age and sense of responsibility.

I can't see him perceiving this "Lead the Girl" or "Herd the Kids" kind of mentality, or associating liking a girl with being in some way dominant or in-charge or 'a top', ?? Don't know what him being 'a bottom' has to do with, his dynamic with Noelle ?? That isn't a pressure I see her bringing out ?? They have a lot in common, so... why would entirely new ideas come in, for either of them? I don't know why it would...

I would say.... Asriel is stifled by the 'role' to be comforting + supportive and yet the expectation to not request a level of intimacy meant for only "peers". This is more age-contingent than gender. Obviously, he can't date them, this goes without saying, but arguably, he isn't even meant to access a level of platonic reliance, either. I could see the age skew preventing him from feeling like it is acceptable to be asking (younger kids, his little sibling's peers and friends) for reassurance, comfort, his own coddling, a hand to wipe HIS tears away-- it would be inappropriate to ask this of younger kids, to go to someone as anxious as Noelle for it, or possibly, to break down in front of Kris (it's probably very significant 'Ralsei' is doing this now!). And yet, his peers can't offer him consolation, either... ! He doesn't feel safe, or trust them, with that vulnerability... and they ask him to be things he isn't. Kris & Noelle could feel the most compatible with him... but, there is a kind of role due to their ages.
I kind of think this might be why Noelle is able to grow & challenge her fears while Asriel rots in generic college pipeline, unable to make his own decisions... It may also be why Kris can be bold & act out, but Asriel cannot. They both had Asriel's support, but I don't know if Asriel felt it was OK to ask for help from them....

I definitely think about a "conflict of interests", but in the sense that Asriel's "interest" is in "not being inconvenient" "not making anything harder for anyone" "not asking for anything" "being helpful when asked for"... I think any of his own desires then induce "conflict". Ralsei is so scared to have 'desires', doesn't know what to do if he isn't acting strictly in his role as the Prophecy outlines. He shouldn't have his own dreams... that isn't what he is "for". Even in a world where Asriel had some crazy thought to kiss Noelle, if it struck him in a sudden moment, he would probably see the impulse as selfish, inconvenient, unwanted, bizarre, not useful to expose, ruinous, destructive, wayward. It would only create chaos. It would qualify as an intrusive thought, upsetting & unwanted. Even if it was simultaneously alluring, or arousing....

I have interest in that kind of 'conflict of interests'. I don't really see 'being a boy' creating a 'conflict of interests' in comparison to like ... everything else in both of their lives. I like het and all but it doesn't really have any meaningful baring on Noelle/Asriel to me. This question may have made me feel weird, so I'm sorry if I'm at all coarse... "show her how a boy is supposed to care for her" is confusing to me, I... think he is just trying to be niceys ... in a generic way.

Again relating Asriel to Dess, I consider it very possible Dess wouldn't have felt it was OK to vent her worst nightmares onto Noelle, her already very anxious little sister! If that 'lost girl' text really is Dess, I would doubt she told Noelle about her repeated nightmare of being shut into the darkness! It would just stress poor Noelle out, right? Hence the older kids feeling isolated... becoming lost in the dark.

After Dess is gone, I could see Asriel trying to support Noelle... by this nature, I don't think him being a boy is effecting much; though his demeanor could be more appealing, or Noelle could find him elegant, charming, princely etc! Which would be the distinction... I just don't imagine much would change if Asriel were a girl, honestly? I don't think his anxieties/pressures with Noelle specifically have to do with gender.... I think she already sees him as a literal role model, as laid out in my last REVO about them!?!? I don't think 'male' is a word in her skull about it... he was, probably the best model of the calm, helpful teen she would like to be.

On the general topic of dysphoria, roles, expectations, I think it's multi-layered for Asriel... I don't think he can fulfill expectations for anyone, in all directions, I think he broadly flops... let's imagine it like...
To girls like Bratty and Catty, Asriel is a Hot Boy Category, sure... he seems to be easily steamrolled and overwhelmed by them, stories of him are not very impressive or flattering...
I don't think he can excel at it... I don't know if he wants to, but he probably doesn't feel good disappointing people, either.
Asriel has a poorly-written compliment for Catty in the pocket of his church jacket; similarly, when Ralsei tries to flirt with Hathy, he fails miserably to come up with something appropriate...

"Dear Catty, thank you for the honor of this junior dance.
Your eyes are like whirlpools of molten cat food...
... the expensive kind you have to buy at the pet store.
Signed... Asriel"
"Hathy, your beauty is just... transcendent.
Your hair is like a waterfall of...
... wait, um, do you have hair, or..."

Bratty refers to herself as making Azzy give her his first kiss....

For whatever reason even BURGERPANTS asks Kris to, NOT tell Azzy he misses him... and Toby once joked about Asriel giving Burgerpants a religious ska CD, and him lying to Azzy about listening to it while never actually intending to (it is too lame ass) (also, Dess doesn't open the ska CD Azzy gave her either...!! FLOP!!!!)

... I think he's good at... running fast ... and singing beautifully... and being oniichan to Kris...
but terrible at actually fulfilling expectations in him socially, maybe particularly with peers...
with girls, OR with boys...
in effect, he's a good-looking loser.

A guy like BURGERPANTS probably would prefer a cool womanizing wingman to help him pick up "CHICKs",
but Asriel has weird religious guilt around dating, so he's useless!!!
Wouldn't Bratty prefer a misbehaving naughty boy down to fool around, who won't tattle to mommy?
AND yet, wouldn't MOMMY prefer a boy who can say 'no' to a girl, who won't come home confessing to a kiss? he's failing everyone by being this way, possibly even his own desires, and his own values. CONSEQUENCES OF BEING A SAD WIMP.

... so when I think about his dynamic with Noelle, I would think it's unique. Her impression of him may be quite different from his peers (who may find him kind of lame, or funny, or difficult to connect to)... that "princely" effect, I doubt that angle even exists for anyone else. He's a "nice boy" to most parents, but that doesn't induce social clout amongst teens. But with Noelle, maybe Asriel has a natural chemistry, so he's not constantly fucking up or looking incompetent. He can help her with Cross Country, they can stretch or warmup together, he can privately coach her in Choir. She's not asking more of him than he can achieve, right? He's impressive just the way he is.

I would like to think being with Noelle feels 'easier' than many things, for Azzy... like he's not forcing himself so hard into the wrong-shaped hole. He's not doing things unnatural... Burgerpants or Bratty ask more unnatural things of him....

I would hope it feels comforting for him as much as it does her, to have some kind of proof he's not completely incapable of functioning with anyone but Kris... but also, she's younger, so he shouldn't let it make him feel too accomplished! I kinda see Asriel and Kris as both stunted... struggling to grow up... scared to do so.

I could IMAGINE a young Noelle having a brief crush on Asriel haha, just the most unintimidating safe boy you could EVER imagine, voice of an angel, downcast eyes, big lashes. Might as well be a boyband member, right? At that age where you don't fully comprehend the barrier that is age group.... But that's conjecture... it's just novel to imagine, not necessarily like, my headcanon. Also very funny to imagine a mostly female-attracted girl's first crush being the most cartoonishly effeminate boy you could dream up.

However I think we're just disagreeing on interpretations at this point, I guess I'M the older folk imagining she could crush on him ?? not "just because they are opposite genders" however, and I can't think of a canon character in a position to think something so WILD about differently-aged kids ??? who is saying something like that about like, the shy 7 year old girl and the 12 year old choir boy ??? I know it happens in the real world SOMEtimes but like, who in actual Deltarune setting would ever make such a weird joke... don't think it would Noelle/Kris typically either....

We kind of have a weird canon circumstance of someone close to Kris/Noelle forcing a loaded scenario on them-- Dess making them ride the ferris wheel together.... but I think Dess knew them both very well, and had very idiosyncratic reasons for that action. I also think Berdly has reasons for insisting Kris is jealous lol... I honestly think Toby is more invested in these kinds of small town familiarity vibes.

If like... Rudy or someone thought baby Noelle had a crush on Azzy at some point, I would believe his perspective and would not think he was just filling in gendered archetypes... I just have no idea who would impose the narrative for 'generic' reasons. I think Toby is more intrigued/stimulated by these complexities.

I don't think the Dreemurr & Holiday kids were seen as something for the parents to worry about for whatever reasons......... no, visible tension.....

it's hardly here nor there but, PERSONALLY I think Kris's entire problem in life is, being a different class of being, not a threat in 'that way', not a viable bachelor, not a potential boyfriend. Kris has so squarely secured self as 'childish court jester' I do not think , hardly ANYONE, not NOELLE not their PARENTS!!! saw Kris as someone to even JOKE about dating anyone ... Kris just, salting their own game in this way, and on top of that, being a human. It is BECAUSE of this status that, Kris was, ALLOWED TO JUST... HIDE IN GIRL'S BEDROOMS... CLOSETS... BREAK INTO THEIR HOUSE... and seen as only "haha hehe ohhh rascal!" MIGHT AS WELL NOT HAVE ANY GENDER OR SEXUALITY AT ALL TO THE WORLD AT LARGE!!! I see it as a bed Kris made for self and has to lie in, but hence the SOUL starting to act out in total opposition and try to FORCE!!!!! some sort of romantic implications onto Noelle, while the other side of Kris is desperately strangling that aspect back into silence. WE DON'T DATE ANYONE!!!! NOBODY WANTS THAT!!!!

While idk, what is Asriel? Ideally to his family I suppose he is a eunuch. Perhaps to himself too.
Wouldn't it be better for him to have NO wants? To just be perfect Son and perfect Oniichan forever?

on another random dysphoria thot.....

I always wonder if the 'pageant' Noelle & Dess were pictured in, was a gender-exclusive event or not? To me 'pageant' connotes that, while I'd think it'd just be called a 'play' or 'production' otherwise, and we'd hear about more than just the girls being in it ? It's technically not a gendered term, though naturally when you google 'pageant' you're going to get exclusively female-centric events. FOR THE SAKE OF THIS DISCUSSION, let's IMAGINE the 'pageant' Dess & Noelle were in, was exclusively female. Something Asriel could not 'audition for' as a child.... The Angel in this pageant could be a role he watched other girls his age fulfil, whether they even enjoyed it or not.

Because Azzy and Kris were... obsessively crafting angel wings... and programming some rainbow-winged 'angel' in their video game... I wonder if there was longing in Asriel to get to play the 'angel', or wear the gown, the wings... a little sad, confusing envy to see Noelle get to wear the wings for months.... similar to Kris's desire for their family's horns.

Ralsei obviously likes pretty ribbons, does curtsy... the Prize Counter that RAMB sits at represents Asriel's desk (pencup of 'swords' and a single 'mouse' sit on it) and hands you out ribbons as prizes ??? Is this anything... are those in the desk? Did Kris hoard those in there at some age, or did Asriel have them on-hand...? We know Noelle used to wear her hair in ribbons... she is nostalgic for them.

Religion disproportionately effects different kids of the town... Kris seems to shrug off everything & pay no attention, Asriel seems very effected by it all & easily upset. For all we know, Kris might disrespect the church precisely because they could witness it stressing out oniichan... hurting him... I don't have an impression it hurts Noelle in the same way ?

The biggest 'hurdle' I see between Asriel and Noelle is that they both don't take a lot of 'risks' by nature and both struggle with giving up or assuming the other person doesn't care... Noelle can't even be sure Kris is her friend, since Kris won't say so out loud... and has never complimented her... both Noelle and Azzy mostly follow the rules, crumple under punishment, don't like to be inconvenient or in the way, don't presume they are attractive or interesting, are easily cajoled by people with stronger will (Berdly & Bratty their respective tormentors cornering them, difficulty saying 'NO!!' to them!). Seem to have a tough time controlling their own fate. Weight of cold mother, weight of religious dogma... Kris is mysteriously capable of commanding & controlling them both in the Darkworld....

I'd describe Noelle as a bit more liberated than Asriel, challenging her fears and anxieties as she ages. It feels as if she is bucking more firmly against her household NOW, while Asriel made it all the way to college age without rocking the boat much.

I think "saving Asriel" is always a challenge in all of these games.

I kind of fundamentally think for anything to happen between Noelle & Asriel, it would have to be pushed by Noelle herself, if we don't have Kris in the room!

Though mostly, when I think of Noelle/Asriel/Kris, I see Asriel's perception of his position as merely a kind of social lubricant... providing additional support for Kris, enabling them both, but assuming the two will eventually (naturally) want him to Leave Them Alone. Accepts this, noble. Removing Desire From My Heart.

Not dissimilar to how I think Kris and Asriel see themselves in relation to Susie & Noelle in canon. Here to help the two get together, but not expecting to stick around. Kris tries to instigate romantic moments (like handing Susie the rose...), and Ralsei tries to gently correct Kris when they derail (if Kris says they will take Noelle to the festival, Ralsei will remind Kris that Noelle will want to go with Susie...). Kind of have an impression 'the plan' involves setting them up, hence Kris furiously kicking self for crazed derailing. I kinda similarly imagine if ASRIEL had some sort of WILD HARE and in a moment of madness, groped for Noelle, he would ALSO later strangle himself like, WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT IS NOOOOT THE POINT!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY WANTS THAT TO HAPPEN NOT EVEN YOU!!! YOU WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO BE HAPPY TOGETHER!!!